Another win for Norton at Snetterton

lcrken said:

jseng1 said:

My Race buddy Mic Ofield raced both Seeley and Rickman frames and declared that the Rickman handled better.

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This is the Ofield Rickman at my place after an engine rebuild. It normally ran with a JPN fairing, but it was not installed in the pictures.

This is in 2010, well after Mick quit racing the bike, but bit it was still raced occasionally by Scott Fabro for Mick's ex-wife Hillary. It had a lot of racing miles on it by then, and the cosmetics certainly had suffered a bit, but it was still a competitive bike. The bike is now Scott's, and he's retired it from racing so he can restore it to it's former glory.

One of the problems with both the Rickman and the Vendetta Seeley replica that Mick replaced with it was frame tube cracking. The frames were built for light weight, and after several years of hard racing started to suffer major cracking in the tubes. Mick had repaired and reinforced the frames of both of them more than once.

Ken

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Thanks for posting these pictures Ken, Since I am building a bike aroun my original Rickman frame I would be pleased to be in contact with Scott at some time.

I have a works JPN style fairing I intend to use, which has an extended lower section to cope with the height of the bike compared to the monococque and space frame.

Steve

jseng1 said:

My Race buddy Mic Ofield raced both Seeley and Rickman frames and declared that the Rickman handled better.

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Their is a chool of though that says that the Rickman handle better with the engine vertical like the Ofield bike rather than tilted forward Commando style...as you can see has been done in the pictures of the two Rickmans Matt posted and on the bike I have borrowed from Chris, I hope to be able to compare with my own which will have the engine mounted as it was originally, and will use oil in frame.

I also note that all three bikes are shown with oil tanks!

I think that if I was building a commando engine into a Rickman frame, the tilted motor would be a better option. I might be old fashioned, but I like to get the weight well forward. The Hyde Harrier frame might be OK too, but it is a 70s frame, so if you have date restrictions ..... I don't know what the caster angle is on the Rickman, but the 27 degrees on my Seeley combined with TZ350 yokes handles superbly. I think the Rickman is closer to the old style manx norton geometry - steeper head angle with much more offset on the yokes.

acotrel said:

I think that if I was building a commando engine into a Rickman frame, the tilted motor would be a better option. I might be old fashioned, but I like to get the weight well forward. The Hyde Harrier frame might be OK too, but it is a 70s frame, so if you have date restrictions ..... I don't know what the caster angle is on the Rickman, but the 27 degrees on my Seeley combined with TZ350 yokes handles superbly. I think the Rickman is closer to the old style manx norton geometry - steeper head angle with much more offset on the yokes.

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Look at all that empty space underneath that Triumph engine....The Norton when vertical drops down there and there is an indent in teh frame to accomodate the timing cover....all of this means that in reality the best place for getting the weight forward is with the engine vertical and as far forwards as possible, which is how Rickman designed it, the weight of a brit twin being in the crank and barrels, should be even better with alloy barrels further lowering the C of G....

Tilting the motor is cosmetic....and on a race bike you don't want that cast primary either nor do you need it with a dry clutch...

lcrken said:

One of the problems with both the Rickman and the Vendetta Seeley replica that Mick replaced with it was frame tube cracking. The frames were built for light weight, and after several years of hard racing started to suffer major cracking in the tubes. Mick had repaired and reinforced the frames of both of them more than once.

Ken

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Lightweight pistons should take care of most of that.

Most Tritons which use the pre-unit Triumph motor and the featherbed frame, are built with the motor too far back. Years ago when I was racing mine , I made new engine plates and moved the motor forward a bout 3/4 inch. There was a noticable difference in handling. The bike lost the vague feeling in the front end, and could be ridden harder. Getting a commando engine lower in the Rickman frame could be a good thing, but tilting it could be even better, even if the motor is slightly higher. Also if the commando engine is not tilted, it would obviously look wrong. When you see something like that on a racing bike, take care. There is a n old saying 'looks right , is right', and it is not that stupid. When you are building a bike, it is easy to theorise, but it is never as simple as just fitting a motor into a frame. If you have a look at the pic of the two stroke that I put up, you will see that it has two steel plates under the motor. We made the Egli frame so the front mount of the H1 engine would be in the same position as it would be using the originally intended TZ750 engine. I am using Suzuki RG250 forks and w heels. The Egli frame when used with 18 inch wheels uses a 26 degree head angle - same as a standard Yamaha. The 17 inch front wheel requires a 25.5 degree head angle. I found that, with a 17 inch rear wheel, to get the head angle right I had to jack the back of the bike up. (Suzuki used an 18 inch rear wheel) This then meant I had to lift the motor to get the chain line right. The cylinder head clears the spine of the frame by 2mm. It worked out - just !

Fitting a commando engine into a Rickman frame won't give you that problem because it is pre-unit construction, and the frame is much more rigid than a standard commando item, so worth using anyway. But you might find it feels vague in the front end and puts you off riding it really hard - difficult to fix if it eventuates.
In relation to my own Mk3 Seeley frame - one of our best riders had one fitted with a G50 engine. He said it felt as though the front end was flexing. Mine feels positive and inspires confidence. The difference could be that his frame might have been a copy, where mine is an original made from chrome-moly tube. Also, I don't use the original two small bars in front of the motor. I use a single curved piece of push-bike tube securely bracketed top and bottom. The curve is intended to allow a bit of spring, and the head of the motor has shoulder bolts and rose joints fitted between it and the torque stays, and between the stays and the frame. So the motor can actually jump up and down a fraction without breaking anything. (The crank is balanced to 72% ) You can see the tube and two of the rose joints in this photo:

Alan,

The Rickman engine installation was designed for Atlas/650SS and Dominator donors....the only thing that looks wrong is the Norton logo going at an angle!

Steve

SteveA said:

Their is a chool of though that says that the Rickman handle better with the engine vertical like the Ofield bike rather than tilted forward Commando style...as you can see has been done in the pictures of the two Rickmans Matt posted and on the bike I have borrowed from Chris, I hope to be able to compare with my own which will have the engine mounted as it was originally, and will use oil in frame.

I also note that all three bikes are shown with oil tanks!

Click to expand...

I thought all the Rickman frames used oil tanks with the dry sump engines. Did they make some with oil-in-frame, or is that something new that you plan to try? I wouldn't think that the tubes alone offer enough volume. Are you using something like an integral tank at the steering head area?

Ken

StevieA told me how he is inventing-constructing his own OIF so awaiting to see it like everyone else, minus some visual clutter and a few lb of mass off rear of CoG.

Hi Ikren

My ex police Rickman Triumph uses the frame only.
The race Commando was the same & so was the Triple.
However I have cleaned a frame out & would not run an oil in frame until I was convinced it was clean.
I also feel that the commando & the Trident run very hot so I fitted oil tanks. I also tend to use far more oil than I used too, in my oil tanks.
Cant see the point in risking my engine.
Saying that, I know the oil in frame works.

Chris

Chris, how would one flush out an old frame to run oil in it? Pre filter changed a lot would be wise too eh. I'm going to pickle Peel's insides as don't trust paint or coatings flaking to clog.

lcrken said:

SteveA said:

Their is a chool of though that says that the Rickman handle better with the engine vertical like the Ofield bike rather than tilted forward Commando style...as you can see has been done in the pictures of the two Rickmans Matt posted and on the bike I have borrowed from Chris, I hope to be able to compare with my own which will have the engine mounted as it was originally, and will use oil in frame.

I also note that all three bikes are shown with oil tanks!

Click to expand...

I thought all the Rickman frames used oil tanks with the dry sump engines. Did they make some with oil-in-frame, or is that something new that you plan to try? I wouldn't think that the tubes alone offer enough volume. Are you using something like an integral tank at the steering head area?

Ken

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I have had the frame repaired and checked to be close to the way it was delivered to me by Rickman the frame was made in October '75.

Oil in frame was a standard Rickman solution used on all of their off road bikes and most race frames until the wetsump bikes (Japanese engines).

Most owners have moved over to using a tank, mainly due to being uncertain of the condition of the insides of their frames after engine blow ups etc....

The frame was cleaned by the repairer who has a lot of experience with Rickman frames having worked for MRD for several years who held teh rights to make Metisse frames at the time....so he made frames and prepared them for customers to use OIF....

I really want to keep the OIF and this is how it was last used. Hobot asked about plumbing, I tried my best to describe the original set up of the pipes, but after 35 years I cannot be 100% sure how it went and I might well experiment with it a little, but the main deal is tha the return to the frame was at the front downtubes to effect an oil cooler, though I recall burning my leg on one of the top tubes trying to hang off the side a little

I used to put in 6 imperial pints to get to the level line throughtfully provided by Rickman, so no problem with capacity, indeed people are using much less in tanks with Commando engines. I expect I will use less oil, and maybe run the engine breather back to the frame.....

Chris's Rickman Commando, which is currentlt in my garage is based on a frame orginally intended for a Triumph, it was originally OIF but that has a tank fitted, he told me he put about 3 imperial pints in that....and he says above he uses more oil than he used to...will need to discuss with him more :roll: