Another win for Norton at Snetterton

lcrken said:

Matt Spencer said:

Be intresting what one would do with a street cam and lights , and how many & how much . Form a orderly queue .

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I'm giving it some thought. I have two of the Maney 1007 kits. I'm building one for Bonneville landspeed events, but I'm thinking about doing the other one for my MK3 street bike, with lower compression and milder cam. One of the problems with doing so is sorting out an alternator arrangement and an electric starter. By the time you machine the drive side case down to accomocate a MK3 primary setup, you've made it thin enough that you've lost some of the advantage of the thicker crankcase. I'm considering something like the Old Britts starter conversion instead, and one of the small alternators (Kubota, etc.) driven from a small belt on the crankshaft. Time will tell if I ever manage to get it done. I alrady have too many projects going for an old guy.

I really think it would have to be in an isolastic chassis. Even with Jim's lightweight rod/piston kit, I suspect the vibration would be too much for a ridgidly mounted engine. Fine for a race bike, but not so hot for a street bike that you want to ride all day.

Ken

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COFFMAN starter . much more spectacular .

Egli with Cradle , to get the seat down . if Isolastic .



Toothed belt 2CV alt. ( Citroen ) , away out the back .

Actually Candles in the Lamps would be a start M-X enduro Q.D. stuff for a Clubmans machine .

A Auxillary starter packed in the seat hump , telescopic handle , might be acceptable , if theres no hills or pushers available .
Electric feet were distained as unnessesary weight , Like Breakfast . .

' SHAKE ' , chuntering was one term , the shafts bounce of the snubbers . OR , with ISO's ,

The Outer Limit Stop Donuts ( Bump stop ?? ) can set up when in frequecy an INCREASED shakeing .
The Shaft snubbs on the outer rubber and rebounds in frequecy for the next one . i think thats what
the Two thousand r.p.m. harsh chunter is . Mine was uncommonly smooth it would appear , but would
do that when downshiffed to second , in Highbury . :lol: . The Roundabout there , Smooth Rolled
Tarmac . could catch ( the Harsh bit ) getting underway ( at Browns Bay ! ) COLD .

At idle it BOINGED better than the FLX or whatever it was at the lights the other day , the whole front end shivvering . Part of the Character where told . :wink

500 rpm idle and the pistons and big ends stay put , and the motorcycle goes up and down . . :lol:
8) :mrgreen:

The Dry Clutch / outrigger JPN space frame primary looks hot shit , Manganese Broze Alloy cover on those suckers ?? the 74 JPN bikes .



Gotta keep it NARROW , Saw a assemetric Victory today , admireing the narrow bike from the right . Cogitateing , wandered around to the left .
The Primarys twelve bloody foot wide . AND its cast in the Crankcase . Not to worry . Ive got a Disc Grinder . :wink:

O.K. we'll call the road equipment ' ancinallry Fittings ' . ( Afterthought , irrelevant . not much use . too heavy . AND you cant HEAR it Properly . 8) )

Thanks for the photo - added it to my collection.

........."Its got to be one of the fastest and best ridden roadracing Nortons on the planet." ....... no doubt Jim, thanks for the post. Any idea of lap times?? CJ

Meaning to ask the same thing myself . Norton Lap Time , and Circuit lap record / machine . Very well done indeed . Could start a supporters club & sell the Tee Shirts . :?

cjandme said:

........."Its got to be one of the fastest and best ridden roadracing Nortons on the planet." ....... no doubt Jim, thanks for the post. Any idea of lap times?? CJ

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I don't have much info on the bike other than what I put in the earlier posts. I designed & supplied the lightweight pistons, longer rods and set him up with a stage 3 cam. Then the bike started "flying". Its stayed together and finished all its races (I think it may have pulled out in one race when the rear tire started melting). The 1000cc light pistons weigh less than original 750cc pistons and so the RPM has increased by 1300 compared to heavy pistons.

He didn't want to lighten the crank anymore to correct the balance factor so I suggested that he press heavy tubing inside the crank journals (something Jim Comstock has done).

Next year we may set up his 750 in a similar way.

jseng1 said:

xbacksideslider said:

Thanks for the report Jim. What is the competition? What kind of bikes?

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I'm not sure what the year cutoff is but he's up against british triples and kawi/suzuki 1000cc four cylinder bikes.
As in photo below (Gary is far left).

Its got to be one of the fastest and best ridden roadracing Nortons on the planet.

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In that shot, number 7 is ex GP racer Sean Emmett on an RG500 Suzuki GP bike, 41 coming through is a TZ750, 71 regular winner Cormac Conroy, who would more typically be riding a 930cc Triumph Triple, but very fast around the circuit will be the blue plated Yamaha TZ350s, never under estimate them....

http://www.mylaps.com/results/showrun.jsp?id=2415149 should give the race results of the the Wheatcroft Trophy, which this picture shows its a feature race including racers from several classes, Gary normally runs in the 1300 Post classic class, with bikes up to Dec '81, there is a subdivision for twins and for multis (triples)......As you will see Gary set a lap in the 1:17s in this race, but did not finish....the winners best lap was in the 1:15s.....Gary had early won two of the 1300 races, with a best lap of 1:19.4, a second and a half faster than 2nd placed Graham Williams, I rate Graham highly too, he was riding a Weslake....750...What this all shows is that in the 1300 races Gary is not being pushed...at the moment....which will give the tyre a better chance of going the distance....

He also runs a 750 bike of Dave Watsons, which struggles a little against some of the Weslake engined 750s, Graham again is one, and Gary also rides a G50 for someone else...Gary is very fast, when he stays on which is most of the time....but occasionally he pushes too hard...., and there is no doubt the 1007 is working well this year......Dave and his engine guy have done a great job with the help of Jim's parts....

lcrken said:

I guess I should mention that I want to run the belt drive for a variety of reasons, but one of the major ones is to be able to have a lower primary drive ratio (1.75 versus the stock 2.19) to reduce stress on the gearbox.

Ken

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Ken, I understand that as a higher primary ratio not lower, the gearbox spins faster and takes less of the twisting load. If you used a TTi HD 5 speed box Bruce Verdon would say it would be fine on the standard primary ratio or the 2:1 he uses with his own clutch design. Me, I would probably use the 1.75:1 anyway, I did in '75 with a 33 tooth triplex sprocket. If you are not using a TTi box my guess is that the torque will break it anyway.....

SteveA said:

lcrken said:

I guess I should mention that I want to run the belt drive for a variety of reasons, but one of the major ones is to be able to have a lower primary drive ratio (1.75 versus the stock 2.19) to reduce stress on the gearbox.

Ken

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Ken, I understand that as a higher primary ratio not lower, the gearbox spins faster and takes less of the twisting load. If you used a TTi HD 5 speed box Bruce Verdon would say it would be fine on the standard primary ratio or the 2:1 he uses with his own clutch design. Me, I would probably use the 1.75:1 anyway, I did in '75 with a 33 tooth triplex sprocket. If you are not using a TTi box my guess is that the torque will break it anyway.....

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You're correct about the terminology, Steve. I understand that 1.75 is what is called "taller" or "higher" gearing than 2.19, but numerically speaking, 1.75 is a lower number than 2.19, so sometimes I get confused and misstate it.

In any case, I'm hoping the stock gearbox will hold up well enough with the higher gearing on a streetbike. If I ever get the bike built with the 1007 engine, I'll find out. If it doesn't hold up, I'll have to look at the TTi box, which is clearly the gold standard at the moment. The other option would be something like a Baker 5 or 6 speed (Harley) gearset in a custom shell for the Norton, like Kenny Dreer used in his 952 prototypes, but that would be a lot more work.

For the landspeed 1007, I'm using a heavy duty Quaife 5-speed that has stood up well to my 920 race engines. Landspeed racing only requires one shift sequence per run, with no downshifts needed, and allows time for very gentle shifts, so I think it should be a lot less stressful than the roadracing usage the gearbox has already survived. If I can run enough nitrous to make really serious power, then I'll start to worry about it. At that point, I think clutch performance might also be a problem. I used the stock Commando clutch with the bronze plates for years of roadracing with the 920, and never experienced any problems, but I suspect there is a limit somewhere to it's capability.

This stuff is always challenging, but then that's the appeal to it.

Ken

acotrel said:

'I really think it would have to be in an isolastic chassis. Even with Jim's lightweight rod/piston kit, I suspect the vibration would be too much for a ridgidly mounted engine. Fine for a race bike, but not so hot for a street bike that you want to ride all day.'

'Vibration' is not really the word for it - 'shake' is closer when it is idling. Same old commando problem, you are tr ying to do two incompatible things. I suggest you have to choose. Personally I believe the isolastics and that stupid balance factor are horrific. If I had to ride an old commando on the street, I'd buy a twin cylinder BMW.

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Courses for horses, and all that. After all, this is the Commando forum, so you might expect to find people like me who actually like riding an "old commando" on the street. Personally I believe that "isolastics and that stupid balance factor" work just fine when the bike is properly set up.

Besides, the question of how well Commandos with isolastics handle has been beat to death already in this forum. Plenty of true believers on both sides. I raced a Commando PR for years, as well as a couple of race bikes with rigidly mounted Commando engines, and seriously enjoyed them all. I've also ridden both kinds on the street, and my preference is the Commando. I'll continue to ride my Commando, and you can continue to ride your BMW, or whatever you prefer, and hopefully we'll both get plenty of pleasure out of the experience. FWIW, I owned a BMW R100RS for a couple years. I enjoyed riding it, but still prefer my Commado.

Ken

Matt Spencer said:

lcrken said:

Matt Spencer said:

Be intresting what one would do with a street cam and lights , and how many & how much . Form a orderly queue .

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

COFFMAN starter . much more spectacular .

Egli with Cradle , to get the seat down . if Isolastic .

Toothed belt 2CV alt. ( Citroen ) , away out the back .

Actually Candles in the Lamps would be a start M-X enduro Q.D. stuff for a Clubmans machine .

A Auxillary starter packed in the seat hump , telescopic handle , might be acceptable , if theres no hills or pushers available .
Electric feet were distained as unnessesary weight , Like Breakfast . .

Click to expand...

you aint speeking a language I actually understand, but that is a Rickman frame.....and tank...but not much else...

More info from Dave Waston below:


If you google crmc click on classic racing motorcycle club when your on crmc web click on results top of page, when you click circuit it gives championship position after each round , when you click on mylaps box it give you lap times and results at each round , Gary's races on norton are

boyer bransden 1 1300cc twins mulits
2 " " "
3 " " "
Classic racer syndicate 1300 cc national
three bears syndicate f750
1 2 3
4

Thanks for That .

Leg Pull / Arm Twist , steve . Not entirely in jest . Its the Add simplicity and lightness Pricipal that doesnt slow things down .
Looking at that Grey thingo , Im not sure it IS a Spine Frame . Details / " but this frame is custom-made, using powdercoated Reynolds 531 tubing. Topping it off are a fiberglass Rickman tank, and a production racer seat. " I think a ' Spine ' type is the most cost effective commercially , for a run of say 100 . Cheap , cheerfull , and strong , as well as light . Straight & good load Charateristics .
Though a 3 1/2 or 4 in top tube would fit in under the tank , and the lower ( cradle ) I think would be neccesary on a Egli Pattern with ISOs to avoid torsional displacement in the rear area .
As in the swing arm side forces twisting the tubes to the rear of the spine . We may well see , before to long . :wink: So dont all dive for it . please .

Another ikle pretty chassis pitcha . This one IS a RICKMAN . Note Differances .Particularly the patent Rickman knik , in those tubes .







ISOLASTICS .

Icrken .

" After all, this is the Commando forum, so you might expect to find people like me who actually like riding an "old commando" on the street. Personally I believe that "isolastics and that stupid balance factor" work just fine when the bike is properly set up. "

They dont seem to worry this bloke . :wink:

" people often wont believe me when I say i could go into a corner on the monocoque, lay it on its side , get both wheels drifting , then put on the power and keep it in a controlled two wheeled drift round any corner FASTER than Druids Bend at Brands Hatch . " P.W.

" ' in the F-750 T.T. at a record speed of 105.47 mph , setting a new lap record at 107 . 27 mph to become the second fastest man EVER around the T.T. course " .

This success was captured forever by a B.B.C. Documentary team ( OK hand it Over )


" Williams demonstrated the truth of the claim at Silverstone in August 1973 in the F750 World Series.
grabbing a improbable ( :roll: ) lead against the factory two strokes, includeing the Suzukis of Barry shenneand Paul smart,
and yvon Duhamel's Kawaski triple,
visably attacked top gear turnslike Abbey and Woodcote in masterfull 2-wheel drifts aboard the underpowered ( ? * ) Norton as he pulled away to score
what seemed to be a fairy tale victory. BUT Cruley ( Mechanics downt pub ? )after he'd equalled Jarno saannen's outright Circuit Lap Record "

RAN OUT OF BLOODY GAS > Dimwitts . or was it a electrical fault . conrod through wireing loom . . * not to sure about that .

===================

" three bears syndicate f750 "



Three Bears .
==============

in masterfull 2-wheel drifts aboard the underpowered ( ? * ) Norton as he pulled away to score what seemed to be a fairy tale victory

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Alrighty Matt, uplifting to read getting loose can be advantage if not over doing it.
Seems like hottest Norton type engines make about 10-11 hp per 100 cc. I think a non rebounding but compliant isolastics is better way to go though, by a good bit too, doubly appealing to me with its spine based frame.

........"He didn't want to lighten the crank anymore to correct the balance factor so I suggested that he press heavy tubing inside the crank journals (something Jim Comstock has done)" .....You guys never cease to amaze me--always thinking outside of the box!! Cj

Matt Spencer said:

Thanks for That .

This one IS a RICKMAN . Note Differances .Particularly the patent Rickman knik , in those tubes .

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I hesitated, after all I have a Rickman fram in the garage and one a the tank maker today! but I had decided it was those footrest plates that made it look different, wrong. It has a different style swinging arm too, but MRD used to make some like that for Rickmans...

In these new pictures the second one has something that is now quite rare, the Rickman 41mm forks....but highlights another issue of rarity, the Lockheed rear master cylinder fitted is a right hand side fitting item, reversed and fitted to the left...bet it leaks fluid a lot....

At least these are now being manufactured again, unlike the forks, but the price is about £275 and you can forget the alternative Grimeca part at £80 now, they went broke....before I bought one....bugger...and please don't suggest a cheaper Brembo remote reservior, they are not eligible for CRMC.....

Also note that neither of these bikes carry the oil in the frame.....mine will, and looks like being the only one racing in the UK that will! someday.....

My Race buddy Mic Ofield raced both Seeley and Rickman frames and declared that the Rickman handled better.

jseng1 said:

My Race buddy Mic Ofield raced both Seeley and Rickman frames and declared that the Rickman handled better.

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This is the Ofield Rickman at my place after an engine rebuild. It normally ran with a JPN fairing, but it was not installed in the pictures.





This is in 2010, well after Mick quit racing the bike, but bit it was still raced occasionally by Scott Fabro for Mick's ex-wife Hillary. It had a lot of racing miles on it by then, and the cosmetics certainly had suffered a bit, but it was still a competitive bike. The bike is now Scott's, and he's retired it from racing so he can restore it to it's former glory.

One of the problems with both the Rickman and the Vendetta Seeley replica that Mick replaced with it was frame tube cracking. The frames were built for light weight, and after several years of hard racing started to suffer major cracking in the tubes. Mick had repaired and reinforced the frames of both of them more than once.

Ken

If you are talking about using an Egli frame to carry a commando engine, you would probably be stuck with the older style with the almost horizontal spine. The seventies two stroke frames would not fit the engine, the s pine would run where the ca rburettors have to be. The later frame has the advantage of a properly braced pivot. The early frame w s used by Slaters to house the Vincent engine, also by Patrick Godet. Here is a picture of my folley which has a copy of the later frame:







The motor is an H1 Kawasaki fitted with RD350 barrels, it is 600cc and has TZ750 port timings.

jseng1 said:

My Race buddy Mic Ofield raced both Seeley and Rickman frames and declared that the Rickman handled better.

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Thats a matter of personal choice I reckon, if you like a stiffer and heavier frame and are happy that once you have chosen a line you are going to have to stick with it, then like me you will enjoy the Rickman, some say it is just to stiff.....

They were strong, a lot stronger that the Seeley MkIIIs and IVs of the period. I decided to build a Rickman in @75 rather than a Seeley because every Seeley Commando I had seen had a crack or repaired crack in it.

There are not many original Seeley frames about today, but a lot of replicas, there are not so many Rickmans racing, but the borrowed one I have in the garage and my own frame are original.....