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Alton Starter / Maney outrigger, anybody combined the two ?

Discussion in 'Norton Commando Motorcycles (Classic)' started by cliffa, Apr 11, 2018.

  1. cliffa

    cliffa

    Joined:
    May 26, 2013
    Folks, I've just spent all my Easter(s) chocolate money on an Alton starter, which looks like a great bit of kit. Howwwwwever... I need your opinion. As I've only had my bike about 15 months I don't know it inside out yet, (and hopefully will never need to), but in the past I was very pleased to see that it's fitted with a Steve Maney gearbox outrigger and presumably his belt drive too. I didn't give it much thought at the time, but then after getting the starter kit I happened to see some talk of having to cut a bloody big hole out of the inner primary cover to allow the outrigger to fit. Now obviously i'm very nervous about doing this to a brand new Alton inner case, so I gave Alton a call yesterday to see if they had any heard of anybody else doing this, and to see how it would affect the guarantee. I felt honoured when Paul Hamon himself answered the phone. I told him of my dilemma, and asked about the guarantee. In a split second he said it would not affect it, and thanked me for contacting them !! I was expecting a completely different answer. He said he could see the benefit in keeping the outrigger, and thought that cutting the hole would not affect the operation of the starter mechanism, as everything behind the centre stud is really just a cover. He even asked me to send some pictures if I go down this route.

    After talking to Paul I called Steve Maney, and he confirmed the need to cut the hole, and the importance of keeping the outrigger with his belt kit. To be honest as it's alreay fitted I would like to keep the outrigger, as I can see the benefit of it.

    So now before I start cutting, has anybody else done this to an Alton case? and what is the general opinion about the usefulness of the outrigger for road use?


    Cheers,

    cliffa
     
  2. baz

    baz VIP MEMBER

    Joined:
    May 26, 2010
    I'd definitely keep the outrigger if you can, I'll be watching this with interest
    As far as I know the cnw starter kit would also need cutting to keep the maney outrigger bearing??
    Maybe the outrigger is not necessary for road use but I have one on my commando and I like the extra support it gives the clutch and shaft,
    You do need to cut a big hole to fit it though
     
  3. gtiller

    gtiller VIP MEMBER

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2012
    Brad Sutton over on the Commando Facebook group has just done that mod.

    I don’t think he’s a member on here though :(

    904F3199-8AA6-44F6-BE63-CAE18685B8AC.jpeg

    He posted a whole stack of pics of his install - it looks really tidy!
     
    cliffa and chaztuna like this.
  4. hobot

    hobot

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2005
    dam dumb hobot cut inner case for Maney out rigger plus sealed the gaps to keep road grit out of belt drive. Can only take off so much of Many outrigger thick ears, so will foul primary case w/o slicing/dicing. I used grease and good eye balling to see where to drill lines of holes to then connect & grind smooth for respectable success. Can't even tell here. Note even mag rotor dynamic balanced.
    [​IMG]

    Red lines mark thin alloy sheet I cut out to sillycon on
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
    Before outrigger Ms Peel power candy cane twisted-bent tranny shafts which miss aligned clutch to wobble to eat chain sprocket teeth to mere nubibns, slipping chain loudly if given much throttle but still good enough with tri-links to keep up with Triumph SpeedTriple accelerating up Mt's steeps. Once firmly aligned/stablized, wheelie limited moderns didn't stand a chance till over the ton in 3rd. So Maney wisdom helped make Ms Peel pilot the Kingston Norton Nut elites from states around hunted down for pecking order to end up out of sight for Peels full hair letting down, to protect them from trying to follow Peel so beyond their capascity it would be criminal man slaugther if not holding back til out out of sight to have my way with Ms Peel. If not bragging like me, eat ya hearts out on shade tree hillbilly, hold my drink - watch this shaft staining thrills.
     
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2018
  5. robs ss

    robs ss VIP MEMBER

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2016
    Steve
    I think that rotor is static balanced - that way it can make static electricity!
    Boom boom!
    Rob
     
  6. chaztuna

    chaztuna VIP MEMBER

    Joined:
    May 5, 2017
    In the aircraft world, what you did is referred to as "chain drilling" Well done! I'm curious, is your gearbox cradle simply painted silver, or do you have an alloy cradle??? I see some reinforcing on your crankcases. Nicely done!

    Charlie
     
  7. hobot

    hobot

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2005
    Ms Peel, now Mz Peel had/has 5/16" thick 6061 alloy race cradle, last one of retired race builder. Steel cradle is 1/4" thick so had to modify machine down Maney out rigger 'ears' thickenss to fit with stock through bolt lengths, leaving enough effective bolt threads. Would still work a treat on steel cradle and available to sell/send at a bargain. - as ain't a factory part for Trixie Combat and Mz Peel has ITT robust trany that don't need the shaft support. I was on 4 Brit Iron forums back then in daily contact with bigger scope of Commando builders than accessnotorn so snagged about a hp worth of less mass and even more in close lookers for a Les something fella. Shaves about a hp worth of mass/7-ish lbs off the steel cradle. Got kicked off or just left in disqust all but asscess and quit here for a year d/t obnoxious loud months and depression from Wesley's death.

    In many ways Commandos may be the most simply complex exotica ever sold to public with best minds beyond mine devoting lives to their great sounds performance upgrades and sexual cocky canted engine smooth operator cute-ness.
     
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2018
  8. Fast Eddie

    Fast Eddie VIP MEMBER

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2013
    Looking good Steve.

    When will it be running?

    You inviting us all over for a start up party ?
     
  9. toppy

    toppy

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2012
    I have Alton with a 32mm RGM belt drive an a Maney outrigger bearing. I means cutting the in case an lubing the starter chain once or twice a year but it all works well enough together.
    The engine runs 9 to 1 CR and a Hemmings big valve head an PW3. So the Alton has its work cut out to start it but it copes. Though some of the pins the gears spin on have come loose an i modified the pins to stop it happening again.
    I put moly grease in the sprag clutch once or twice an it is holding up ok after about 3000 miles (i would say its the part most likely to not like the dry chaincase).
    Both Mick Hemmings an Steve Maney said that as its a road bike an has an alloy clutch an pressure plate (RGM) the outrigger was not really needed but you know how it is one fancy part leads to another.
     
  10. tray

    tray

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2010
    hi is there any machining needed on rear casing for front maney pulley to fit
     
  11. gtiller

    gtiller VIP MEMBER

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2012
    @tray are you referring to Steve Maney’s Belt drive kits?

    He does two different sizes - a wide 40mm one which won’t allow you to fit the alternator rotor on the end of the crank let alone get the cover on!
    He also makes a 30mm kit which will allow you to fit the alternator.
     
  12. hobot

    hobot

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2005
    Looking good Steve. When will it be running? You inviting us all over for a start up party ?

    Fast Ed, Photo's are from 2003, did its job till Ms Peel over rev event, so long gone.
    Mz Peel now has Maney 40 mm drive, which he modified the inner case to mount a normal crank end charger on, allowing primary cover to fit/seal. Alas the Drouin blower pulley width left a ~1/2" gap, so tossed factory alternator to come up with friction drive alternator on top of belt run.

    Sprag gears often don't last 300 miles so 3000 is 10x's more fortunate. Best grease I've come across for any/all Commando areas is JD tractor Cornhead with is more like oil that won't leak away, liquid in moving surfaces but sticks like grease where no motion disturbs it. Most misserable place to work on tractors is the steering box, deep down inside, so Cornhead grease permanently sealed solved its tough job and maintenance.
     
  13. cliffa

    cliffa

    Joined:
    May 26, 2013

    Thanks gtiller. As you say that looks a really nice job, but no room for belt tensioning, but Is that even required with a belt though?

    Any chance of sharing the FB group URL please? I've been searching for it, but that site is a pure mess.


    Cheers,

    cliffa.
     
  14. cliffa

    cliffa

    Joined:
    May 26, 2013
    Thanks toppy, good to know.

    I ordered a IWIS chain off Andy which looks too nice to fit to anything, but definitely beefier than the Alton chain.

    To be honest, personally I don't think the weight of the clutch is a problem, but rather the fore - aft stresses on the long section of unsupported mainshaft. That's why I'd prefer to keep the outrigger if I can.


    Cheers,

    cliffa
     
  15. gtiller

    gtiller VIP MEMBER

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2012
    @cliffa hope this works:

    https://www.facebook.com/groups/10302209470/about/

    It’s a private group just called ‘Norton Commando’ there are currently just over 10k members.

    Such delights include, which oil, how do you prevent wet sumping as well as what is the best electronic ignition!!!!

    ;)
     
  16. cliffa

    cliffa

    Joined:
    May 26, 2013

    Mmmmm, that sounds familiar :D
     
  17. MexicoMike

    MexicoMike

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2010
    What the heck is a Maney outrigger? Why does anybody need one?
     
  18. baz

    baz VIP MEMBER

    Joined:
    May 26, 2010
    It's an outrigger bearing to take some of the side load off of the main shaft bearing,
    The main shaft had to be made longer to take the commando clutch this puts a lot of strain on an already over stressed gearbox
    Debatable whether you need one on a road bike but I wouldn't be with out mine
     
  19. cliffa

    cliffa

    Joined:
    May 26, 2013
    6th item from the bottom...

    http://www.stevemaney.com/products.html


    Like baz said it's debatable whether a road bike really needs one, but as mine is already fitted i'd like to keep it.


    cliffa
     
  20. cliffa

    cliffa

    Joined:
    May 26, 2013

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