Alton e-starter on 850

A Norton specialist has been having problems with the e starter he installed on a 850 Interstate. The rotor and sprague clutch key keeps shearing off. The bikes timing is slightly retarded to prevent backfires and does not kickback.
Has anyone else had a similar problem with the Alton starter. The Alton system is very well made and shows quality in the parts, finish and fit. Please replay directly to : rmullett@shaw.ca.

Yes...it is ESSENTIAL to use the full torque setting on the crank nut. To complicate matters, I believe there is a question about the factory being right on the foot pounds of torque.

If i remember correctly someone commented that retorquing after a while or when hot (as with exhausts) maybe a good idea. It know when I've done mine a couple of times (removed for engine rebuild) the force you apply even with a two foot long torque wrench is considerable. I worry about the nut being thinner than the original manufacturer's part. But mine is close fit on crank threads maybe yours is not such a good fit.

Is the sprag clutch unit a good fit on crank and being correctly sandwiched against spacer and primary sprocket.

The crank nut is torqued to Alton specs. Alton does not recommend using the serrated lock washer and us Locktite which he did. The key way is in excellent shape and new keys both time they sheared. All components are a night snug fit.
This is a problem that needs to be solved and I have had not reply from my inquiry to Alton.

Hello all, my friend Yves in Brussels recently installed an Alton starter on his Seeley Norton, he found a simple yet elegant solution to the problem, here is what he writes:

"Hi there, I have installed an Alton starter on my Seeley Commando with Tri-spark ignition (that never backfires).
Here is what I did:
I put a Belleville washer under the crank nut and torqued it to the original Norton spec. ( a Belleville washer is a slightly conical washer, much wider than the crank nut, that flattens upon being tightened ).
I used the original crank nut, BUT shortened it to be 2mm THICKER than the Alton nut (tickness of the Belleville washer).
I received the Alton kit with tree polyurethane shock absorbers (although there are six positions) which sheared after 20 starts, so I made six nylon pins to replace the three polyurethane, since then no problem, everything works perfectly.
This week I will open the system to inspect everything once more and I will keep you posted.
I use an one piece crankshaft with the long rods from Jim Schmidt motorsport

Yves Van Heers from Belgium"


I can vouch that Yves' bike starts on the button, without even touching the throttle...of course twin Keihin FCR 35mm carbs do help! :mrgreen:

Best, Bruno

Link below to the retorque recommendation, scroll down to the photo posted by yours truly.

alton-electric-starter-share-your-experience-t13414-90.html

If you're torquing the crank nut correctly and still shearing the key then you have an assembly problem. The crank nut should hold the sprag and its spacer tight against the crank pulley/sprocket, leaving no load on the key. It sounds like maybe the crank nut is bottoming out, making it appear to be fully tight? This suggests the spacer is missing or too small? The Alton instructions are really clear about how to check all this properly so I'm surprised your man has a problem with it (assuming he has the more recent manual and not using an early version).

Have you fit the biggest battery you can find and is it new? Batt cables new and large diameter?

This is an interesting discussion. The idea of a spring washer is good and we support it.

As an aside, in case anyone needs to contact us for a service call or question, mails sent to aftersales@alton-france.com are answered from Tuesday to Friday 9.30 to 4.30 Paris time (GMT+1). Beverley, (me) the person who deals with after sales and sales ( a native English speaker) works 4 days. If your email arrived on the weekend it won't get answered until the office is open. But I will reply as a priority as soon as I'm here. I know people could be reading this from anywhere in the world so this may help... http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/meetingtime.html?year=2016&month=4&day=1&p1=1264&p2=47

Thanks for understanding

Hello all, after the above message by Paul from Alton, here is a positive update by Yves:

"Hi there,
Like I promised you, I took apart the entire Alton system and so far so good!
The 6 Ergal pins don’t show any wear
Before I removed the nut from the crankshaft, I put the torque wrench on it and found the same torque as I was using the first time, but don’t forget that I use the original nut from Norton after some rework on the lathe.
About the steel spring-washer under the nut: the washer is really wide, the washer covers half of the two holes in the rotor.
No wear on the woodruff key either.
So my conclusion so far:
Use a Large steel spring washer, the nut wil never losen, but don’t forget the spring washer is two mm thick, so you must adapt an original Norton nut if you don’t want to lose two mm of tread on the crank.
Be sure to use an anti backfire ignition like Pazon or Tri spark before you change the three polyurethane pins from Alton for six Ergal (white nylon) (the polyurethane act like a mechanical fuse in case of back fire)
Torque the nut to the recommanded torque as per the Norton manual
And most off all before you start installing the Alton, be sure that you engine start first or second kick
You will ask me why I don’t use The CNW starter; well becouse you don’t have the place to fit it in a Seeley Frame
Matt From CNW is a fantastic man, and I will never forget what he did for me in the past.

From Belgium with love,
Yves"

Another thing to consider, most if not ALL electronic ignitions have some form of output protection to keep the transistors from going up in smoke when the engine is not running. Usually when first turned on, the output stage of the ignition is acting as a closed circuit which means that current is flowing in the coil(s), after a few secons of inactivity, they turn off producing a spark. If at that instant the bike is kicked through or the starter is activated, there is a risk of a backfire because the spark may ignite the fuel mixture at the wrong time.

What I do is either to wait a bit after turning on the ignition and before hitting the starter button or do ignition on and start very soon after.

Jean

Jean's method is interesting and worth bearing in mind for those with an electronic ignition.

Jeandr said:

Another thing to consider, most if not ALL electronic ignitions have some form of output protection to keep the transistors from going up in smoke when the engine is not running. Usually when first turned on, the output stage of the ignition is acting as a closed circuit which means that current is flowing in the coil(s), after a few secons of inactivity, they turn off producing a spark. If at that instant the bike is kicked through or the starter is activated, there is a risk of a backfire because the spark may ignite the fuel mixture at the wrong time.

What I do is either to wait a bit after turning on the ignition and before hitting the starter button or do ignition on and start very soon after.

Jean

Click to expand...

I have an Alton starter on my 850 and the three pins sheared on the 4th start. John Healy( the importer) send a replacement set. They sheared. My neighbor machined a set of pins from a different material and all has been well since. John Healy told us recently that Alton has changed the material used for the pins. After the mod, the starter works well. I have a Tri Spark on the bike so backfire should not be an issue. My neighbor is installing an Alton on a 750 today. I'll report back on the "new" pins.

t7275tr said:

I have an Alton starter on my 850 and the three pins sheared on the 4th start. John Healy( the importer) send a replacement set. They sheared. My neighbor machined a set of pins from a different material and all has been well since. John Healy told us recently that Alton has changed the material used for the pins. After the mod, the starter works well. I have a Tri Spark on the bike so backfire should not be an issue. My neighbor is installing an Alton on a 750 today. I'll report back on the "new" pins.

Click to expand...

The TriSpark "should" not backfire when the bike is kicked over, but it too has the same output stage protection and it will cause a spark to occur at a random time when the protection circuit cuts power to the output transistors. No two ignitions have the same "idle time" before switching off so as the saying goes, YMMV. Probably the best way to find out how much time they take to switch off would be to pull the plugs, turn on the ignition, while at the same time starting a stopwatch (or a stopwatch app :mrgreen: ) and see how long it takes to get a spark without moving the engine.

Jean