750 Commando Title Transfer Issue

My ‘69 750 S had a six digit frame serial number that was already being used by some Willys pickup In DMV’s system. I was able to convince California Highway Patrol to use the engine number 20M3S plus the same six digits from the frame to identify this machine on the new title request. It worked.
 
Can't decide which is more stupid:
1) They only go by VIN
2) They don't realize that the 17-character VINs have been required since 1981
3) They have no override for what their computer does
4) They allow an illegal VIN to be titled (no such thing as a legal 6-character VIN in 2005)
5) By Virginia Law you must report a vehicle sold when you sell it. How can they mark it sold without arresting you for breaking the law!

How backwards can we get in 2022 - feels like the silliness that might have happened 50 years ago when computers were fairly new.
I think VINs were introduced in NZ about 1990 but because we are only a small country there is only one system. Two vehicles with the same VIN would be picked up instantly.
 
I went through something very similar here in NC. After 42 years, and as the original owner, I was able to do a bare frame no money spared restoration/upgrades on my 7.73 850 Commando. Towards the end of the project ( I thought, more on that another time), I decided to get the paperwork sorted. I went to DMV (great down here) and presented a clean NY title, NY insurance cards and registration. The woman ran my VIN and said my numbers came up as stolen. She said someone could have had "fat fingers" typing in the numbers at some point. She said she was sure the info was incorrect, but I had to contact the NC Agency that handles this stuff, which I did.

An agent came here to my shop to take pics, inspect the matching numbers on the bike, my original title, insurance and registration cards, NY tag, receipts and pics from back in the day, etc. and said he was also confident I was the owner and he would help me to get a NC title. Interesting is that once he filed his report, I was able to get NC insurance, tag and registration so I could put it on the road. The DMV lady said it could take a year to get a title, but the great agent said 3-6 months even though I paid for it already. It's been about 6 months now and I plan on contacting him for a follow up.

He explained the system to me. Back in the day, before the federal program, and given the small amount of numbers used for VIN's, that sometimes the same VIN would be on different vehicles. He said my VIN was also related to a middle '60's Porsche and some American Car of the same vintage. He said in Ford's case, they might throw a letter like a "F" combined with the numbers for a VIN. When the feds took over, the confusion with the older vehicles started. So part of his investigation in my case was trying to track down any DMV or Insurance records on the other vehicles over many years. He quickly determined in 2 days that basically those vehicles no longer existed "in any system" and that he would push to get my title through. I only really cared because when I check out, I want my much younger wife to be able to sell all of my toys and other assets for tax free cash.

He said that he's found a lot of bikes through insurance records. In one case, a guy in CT bought a new Harley in the early 70's, and within a week it was stolen prior to him generating any paperwork and the follow up to find the bike was fruitless by the owner. He refiled a claim just a few years ago and my agent, through insurance records, found the completely restored bike in a Harley dealer, and the dealer had to give the bike back to the original owner with zero compensation.

I'm not so sure that my issue can help you, in my case I lucked out with a cool agent who was very knowledgeable and enthusiastic for people to have their restored vehicles on the road, include muscle cars from back in the day. You seem to have plenty of documentation but maybe try getting a different agent or insurance records to back your case. The dealer would have had to have it listed on an insurance policy (you would think) while he owned it.

Good luck with this and if I think of any other guidance I can give you after I contact my agent, I'll gladly pass it along.......
This is great information. Thank you for taking time to share it.
 
Try your local police. They can do the lookup and maybe they will tell you the whole story like mine did. VA kept saying my mothercycle was titles in MI until I told them it was a tractor - then they said that they knew!
My agent told me the real problem is the people who give the "final say" on issuing titles is the typical, useless, ignorant bureaucrats who are in a position of power and have no interest or expertise' in the areas that we are having problems with. He said they can't even think about anything before the feds took over and has said they still think they know what they have no clue about. He told me that he trusts experts like all of us in these areas over the idiots and has gone through stuff like my case many times before battling them so we can get "our papers in order".....I can't emphasize enough making copies of everything you've got like it did, in duplicate.

Any system can be beat, but it takes stepping outside of certain areas to do it. The govt. has really set the standards for doing business outside of the laws that they make and ignore for themselves for personal enrichment punishing the rest of us to adhere to while stealing our tax dollars.

I'll post what happens in my case after I find out about it. I'm cautiously optimistic a title will arrive in my PO Box one day, but only because of this individual agent.
 
Other manufactures didn't just use 6 numbers. 1957-mid 1969 Triumphs were Hxxxxx (500cc) or DUxxxxx (650cc) and later they were made of three parts: Model, 2-character month of manufacture and then serial: the 70 Bonneville I have is T120RXD34675 and that is VERY clearly stamped into the frame and engine.
At this point I would be asking if I could stamp NOR in front of the current 6 digits if the DMV would agree to a modified VIN, I have seen posts saying after the introduction of the 17 digit VIN they had to add another 11 digits to 6 digit VIN's when registering after a restoration.
 
Last evening I tried running a VIN check for my old pickup whose VIN is 8 characters. I started from the WA state DMV website. I discovered I can't do that without paying a fee to a contractor for the National title section of the DOJ. I'm not anxious to learn what hydra-headed dogs lie sleeping behind that $40 exercise. So, I'll visit the nice man at our department of licensing contractor. Small town, one guy who you can actually talk to and asks about your vintage rig even when you arrive driving something else because he saw it in the 4th of July parade. I'll bet he can run a VIN check. All of my bikes are titled as Collector Vehicles so there is no annual renewal activity to tickle the system. So, this thread really concerns me and I thank all of you who have related your experiences. I wonder what Jay Leno does when he runs up against California's notorious DMV?
 
Last evening I tried running a VIN check for my old pickup whose VIN is 8 characters. I started from the WA state DMV website. I discovered I can't do that without paying a fee to a contractor for the National title section of the DOJ. I'm not anxious to learn what hydra-headed dogs lie sleeping behind that $40 exercise. So, I'll visit the nice man at our department of licensing contractor. Small town, one guy who you can actually talk to and asks about your vintage rig even when you arrive driving something else because he saw it in the 4th of July parade. I'll bet he can run a VIN check. All of my bikes are titled as Collector Vehicles so there is no annual renewal activity to tickle the system. So, this thread really concerns me and I thank all of you who have related your experiences. I wonder what Jay Leno does when he runs up against California's notorious DMV?
I also have historic perm plates. I can just imagine getting pulled over what would happen. Riding a motorcycle in VA whose VIN now belongs to someone in MI with dead VA plates - bet I would find myself in shackles!

I never would have known I had a problem had I not accidently noticed the status was sold when I was on my online DMV account.

I have a lot more Nortons - who knows which will be stolen by the Govt. next and who knows which may have trouble being titled by a new owner. I'll never buy another Norton with a 6-character VIN! I'm considering parting them all out to recover my cost - not sure it makes sense to build them.

I spent several hours last night looking for free public access to the database. It is a DoJ database but only approved for-profit companies have access. I'm going to try to get access for my company.
 
You have spent a ton of time and effort; I wouldn't have the patience to make so many trips through the Valley-of-the-shadow-of death....

Sue their asses!
You maybe the phalanx of a class action case. But, in any event, scan the VA Bar Association website, pick a bone eating lawyer and pay for a consult; go from there.

I wish you the best!
 
You have spent a ton of time and effort; I wouldn't have the patience to make so many trips through the Valley-of-the-shadow-of death....

Sue their asses!
You maybe the phalanx of a class action case. But, in any event, scan the VA Bar Association website, pick a bone eating lawyer and pay for a consult; go from there.

I wish you the best!
Big problem - guarantee to cost more than you'll get.

I am ratcheting up. My state delegate has not answered, so wrote to country sheriff. They are likely to answer to contact the county police which I will do. They will likely say to contact the State Police - will do. They will probably say FBI since it's interstate grand larceny - don't trust them, won't. VA Governor's next. Somewhere, in there, probably a day when I'm taking steroids, I'll get even more pissed and contact the local news media and try to start a s-storm.

In the meantime, all those here that have been hurt by the system now have the email address to write. Once I get the address, it will be registered letter time and a FOIA request for a dump of the database. I'm really pissed that it's public info that the public must pay companies to get!
 
I forgot to mention that my agent emailed me the report on my Norton that he presented to Raleigh in 2 days after his inspection in my shop. I printed it right up for my file. Make sure to document any and all correspondence with anyone, even if it's just listing phone conversations, content of those conversations, whom you spoke with,
time and date, etc. My wife is a paralegal and this is what lawyers do to help with the billable hours.
Big problem - guarantee to cost more than you'll get.

I am ratcheting up. My state delegate has not answered, so wrote to country sheriff. They are likely to answer to contact the county police which I will do. They will likely say to contact the State Police - will do. They will probably say FBI since it's interstate grand larceny - don't trust them, won't. VA Governor's next. Somewhere, in there, probably a day when I'm taking steroids, I'll get even more pissed and contact the local news media and try to start a s-storm.

In the meantime, all those here that have been hurt by the system now have the email address to write. Once I get the address, it will be registered letter time and a FOIA request for a dump of the database. I'm really pissed that it's public info that the public must pay companies t
 
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We have three choices of who inspects the vehicle. The "authorized inspection station" are the repair shops who do annual State required safety inspections. These people are knowledgable in vehicular matters, and are a far better choice than the other two options.
Smooth as glass, no drama.
 
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We have three choices of who inspects the vehicle. The "authorized inspector" are the repair shops who do annual State required safety inspections. These people are knowledgable in vehicular matters, and are a far better choice than the other two options.
Smooth as glass, no drama.
In VA, no one does this type of inspection - no such requirement for titling or registration. That's not the issue.

The VA DMV looks on the national database and marks any vehicle found titled in another state as sold in the VA records. No one is disputing that my motorcycle is what was titled in VA - they have given the power to a computer rather than a human. VA was very smooth until it was not.

Participation by the states is required by federal law, better read this: https://vehiclehistory.bja.ojp.gov/...edia/document/statecompliancenotification.pdf
 
In VA, no one does this type of inspection - no such requirement for titling or registration. That's not the issue.

The VA DMV looks on the national database and marks any vehicle found titled in another state as sold in the VA records. No one is disputing that my motorcycle is what was titled in VA - they have given the power to a computer rather than a human. VA was very smooth until it was not.

Participation by the states is required by federal law, better read this: https://vehiclehistory.bja.ojp.gov/...edia/document/statecompliancenotification.pdf
I understand, State law varies widely.

Just sharing, for a broader perspective.
 
I understand, State law varies widely.
The issue is how a State uses the national registry run by DOJ (the National Motor Vehicle Title Information System or NMVTIS). This should be a concern for all Norton owners in the US because you could have your title nullified like Greg's if another vehicle matches your VIN enters the NMVTIS. While the VIN database is managed at the Federal level, the policy on addressing VIN conflicts is probably handled at the State level. The policy should be that if a current VIN exists in the system, a new registration cannot be issued with that same number and a different number should be used for the new registrant. However, in Greg's case a registration in another State went through and it nullified a current and valid registration. If it happened to him, it can happen to anyone and it's not the State you are in that's the issue, it's the State that's issuing the Title. We all need to write DOJ and our States and make them aware of this issue and ask for their policy when titling a new VIN that matches an existing VIN
 
When I hit the snag of another vehicle having the same number I had to get a certified inspection, this was after getting just an inspection. Both times the sheriff came to my house (I live in a rural area). He was able to call it in and ask the type of vehicle it was and the year, also he asked the expiration date. Turned out to be a 1962 Atlas with an expiration date of 2050, like I said above It can't be because that year could not be with a 122xxx vin number, the sheriff said don't worry we can get it done even if we have to issue a new number. Being the difficult person I am I said "I really don't want to do that I want to keep it the way it is. So after printing out the NOC list of model bikes and years of production with vin numbers that was a start. I won't go on and on here about all the other things I had to do but in the end I was able to keep the correct number and not need to attach a new vin number plate to it. Damn computers can be a pain in the ass, they are only as good as the information people feed into to them. But I'll say it again, I was lucky as the people I dealt with were very helpful in getting it done and assured me it can be done. Thanks to Cortez DMV, sweet ladies that work there. Don't give up it can be done. Chuck
 

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A common theme here is to say what you were able to do in the past in your state. Interesting, but has nothing to do with today in my state.

This was not a problem for me before 2022 in VA. MI re-titled a tractor in 2022 and that invalidated my 2015 title. It also invalidated my current registration. I switched from standard to historic (permanent) registration in July 2017, so either the database wasn't being used by VA or the MI tractor was not in it in 2017.

That you were able to do something in your state in the past does not mean that you don't have a problem today.

Federal law dictates the use of the database - I imagine that states have some latitude in how they use it, and none in submitting to it.

Even if you have no problem with your state, if you decide to sell the buyer may have a problem in their state.

I have checked all my other bikes and they have no problem today - that could change tomorrow.

The database is a great thing that has been poorly implemented. Those loose states that will title anything for the money were causing cloning (build a Norton, give it a reasonable number, and title it). Simply going by the vehicle type and VIN would go a long way to preventing this issue. The type, model and VIN would stop it altogether. However, they are proud that they made it "concise".
 
Greg, How did you do the VIN check on your bikes? Does VA offer that service to owners? So far as I can tell, WA does not. I'd have to use one of the for-profit contractors. Do I trust them to be both honest and accurate? No. Not sure I trust the State DMV either. But clearly the National database has holes in it. These government databases can be a nightmare. Yesterday, it took me several hours and an overnight wait for maintenance to happen just to renew my HAM radio license issued by the FCC.
 
Greg, How did you do the VIN check on your bikes? Does VA offer that service to owners? So far as I can tell, WA does not. I'd have to use one of the for-profit contractors. Do I trust them to be both honest and accurate? No. Not sure I trust the State DMV either. But clearly the National database has holes in it. These government databases can be a nightmare. Yesterday, it took me several hours and an overnight wait for maintenance to happen just to renew my HAM radio license issued by the FCC.
I didn't do a VIN check; I checked the registration of my bikes. The VA DMV has "MyDMV". From there you can renew registrations and more. All my titled vehicles are shown. My rider Norton was shown as sold. Now it doesn't show at all.

Like I said earlier - it pisses me off that it is public info but you have to pay a company who has been granted access to the database to extract data. I'm trying to find out how I can be approved for access - if I accomplish that I will provide a service for free to the vintage community assuming that the Govt doesn't charge me. Failing that, I'll do a FOIA request for the entire database.
 
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