750 Commando Title Transfer Issue

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I purchased a 1972 Commando in 1998 from BMW of Denver. I have the bill of sale and Colorado title from that purchase. This summer I relocated to New Mexico and have gone through the process of transferring titles of all my vehicles. The Norton should have been a slam dunk (or so I thought) because I have kept it registered and plated continuously in Colorado. Well when I went to the MVD office in New Mexico and they ran my title through the Colorado database it said that a new title was issued in 2016 and the new title superseded (purged) my title. I called Colorado DMV and was told over the phone to apply for a duplicate title which would purge any other titles. After applying for that I got a rejection letter stating that I should instead provide a new bill of sale for Purged Colorado Record. It seems like I'm getting the runaround from Colorado and I have a theory that the VIN is the issue. Since older British bikes used serial numbers and not modern VINs that are unique to each vehicle do you think that the same serial numbers could have been used by different manufacturers and that using the serial numbers as VINs could cause title issues like I have? I'm thinking about applying for a title search to find out make/model/year of the vehicle titled in 2016 using my Norton's serial number. Anyone else have issues like I have?
Thanks,
Doug
 
Another member has the same problem, I think is was in Virginia. I'm sure he will chime in. Computers and incorrect data entry is most likely the problem, don't give up!
 
I ran the serial number of one of my Commandos through the Ohio DMV computer search and it was returned as a 1978 Strick semi trailer! I have registered this bike every year since 1973 with no issue and will never sell it, so I won't bother with trying to correct it. I'm sure that it was never put into Ohio's database since the title was issued prior to the establishment of the database.
 
I live in Colorado and had a similar issue, 6 years ago I purchased a Atlas basket case to build up. It came with a title with the correct vin numbers, when i finished it this spring and took it to the DMV they ran the number and found it was registered in Ohio. Funny thing is that it was registered as a 1962 in Ohio and the number is 122xxx so how could that be when that number is a 1967? I went through 2 months of all kinds of paperwork to finally get it done. I must say that they were very nice at the DMV and walked me through the whole process. But it shows that a title means very little when the computer says different. Maybe it will take a little time but you'll get it. Chuck.
 
Thanks for the replies. I am interested in what vehicle they're calling mine on the so-called "re issued" title. My only problem is that I'm no longer a Colorado resident and that's what their procedures are structured for. I may be able to get a clean new title from New Mexico. Meanwhile I can ride my KLR.
 
Thanks for the replies. I am interested in what vehicle they're calling mine on the so-called "re issued" title. My only problem is that I'm no longer a Colorado resident and that's what their procedures are structured for. I may be able to get a clean new title from New Mexico. Meanwhile I can ride my KLR.
There are ways around that nonsense.
 
'Had a series 1 RE Interceptor, VIN 414. Went to get it a title (MA) and was told that that number matched a boat trailer. I asked the clerk if she thought anyone would confuse a boat trailer with a motorcycle? Stamp, stamp... What pleased me the most was finding a modicum of common sense...

Regarding your conundrum , you are making headway, good-on-you, however if you get to the point where you are burning too much of your time or getting consumed with frustration, there are a number of title companies that will get you the means.

This topic has a lot of air time on this forum, try some searching.

Best
 
Here in Ontario there is never an issue , at least in my experience of 19 motorbike ownership transfers over the years . Plus if there is any issue , you could just swear /sign an affadavit with a J.P. or even the ministry of Transpo.
Lately we have had bigger problems with the Asian crime unit North York targeting rings stealing high end vehicles to go into containers to Nigeria / Africa where your new owner $hips are processed but quickly on the arrival dock !
 
Another member has the same problem, I think is was in Virginia. I'm sure he will chime in. Computers and incorrect data entry is most likely the problem, don't give up!
Greg Marsh.

This should be a concerning problem for any Norton owner in the US as the US uses a national database and there are other vehicles that use 6 digit VINs. The concerning part is it seems a newer title request can nullify an existing title. That shouldn't be allowed to happen, rather you should not be allowed to title a VIN if a title for that VIN already exists. My title has the displacement in front of the SN so it's something like 750208xxx.
 
I purchased a 1972 Commando in 1998 from BMW of Denver. I have the bill of sale and Colorado title from that purchase. This summer I relocated to New Mexico and have gone through the process of transferring titles of all my vehicles. The Norton should have been a slam dunk (or so I thought) because I have kept it registered and plated continuously in Colorado. Well when I went to the MVD office in New Mexico and they ran my title through the Colorado database it said that a new title was issued in 2016 and the new title superseded (purged) my title. I called Colorado DMV and was told over the phone to apply for a duplicate title which would purge any other titles. After applying for that I got a rejection letter stating that I should instead provide a new bill of sale for Purged Colorado Record. It seems like I'm getting the runaround from Colorado and I have a theory that the VIN is the issue. Since older British bikes used serial numbers and not modern VINs that are unique to each vehicle do you think that the same serial numbers could have been used by different manufacturers and that using the serial numbers as VINs could cause title issues like I have? I'm thinking about applying for a title search to find out make/model/year of the vehicle titled in 2016 using my Norton's serial number. Anyone else have issues like I have?
Thanks,
Doug
I went through something very similar here in NC. After 42 years, and as the original owner, I was able to do a bare frame no money spared restoration/upgrades on my 7.73 850 Commando. Towards the end of the project ( I thought, more on that another time), I decided to get the paperwork sorted. I went to DMV (great down here) and presented a clean NY title, NY insurance cards and registration. The woman ran my VIN and said my numbers came up as stolen. She said someone could have had "fat fingers" typing in the numbers at some point. She said she was sure the info was incorrect, but I had to contact the NC Agency that handles this stuff, which I did.

An agent came here to my shop to take pics, inspect the matching numbers on the bike, my original title, insurance and registration cards, NY tag, receipts and pics from back in the day, etc. and said he was also confident I was the owner and he would help me to get a NC title. Interesting is that once he filed his report, I was able to get NC insurance, tag and registration so I could put it on the road. The DMV lady said it could take a year to get a title, but the great agent said 3-6 months even though I paid for it already. It's been about 6 months now and I plan on contacting him for a follow up.

He explained the system to me. Back in the day, before the federal program, and given the small amount of numbers used for VIN's, that sometimes the same VIN would be on different vehicles. He said my VIN was also related to a middle '60's Porsche and some American Car of the same vintage. He said in Ford's case, they might throw a letter like a "F" combined with the numbers for a VIN. When the feds took over, the confusion with the older vehicles started. So part of his investigation in my case was trying to track down any DMV or Insurance records on the other vehicles over many years. He quickly determined in 2 days that basically those vehicles no longer existed "in any system" and that he would push to get my title through. I only really cared because when I check out, I want my much younger wife to be able to sell all of my toys and other assets for tax free cash.

He said that he's found a lot of bikes through insurance records. In one case, a guy in CT bought a new Harley in the early 70's, and within a week it was stolen prior to him generating any paperwork and the follow up to find the bike was fruitless by the owner. He refiled a claim just a few years ago and my agent, through insurance records, found the completely restored bike in a Harley dealer, and the dealer had to give the bike back to the original owner with zero compensation.

I'm not so sure that my issue can help you, in my case I lucked out with a cool agent who was very knowledgeable and enthusiastic for people to have their restored vehicles on the road, include muscle cars from back in the day. You seem to have plenty of documentation but maybe try getting a different agent or insurance records to back your case. The dealer would have had to have it listed on an insurance policy (you would think) while he owned it.

Good luck with this and if I think of any other guidance I can give you after I contact my agent, I'll gladly pass it along.......
 
I purchased a 1972 Commando in 1998 from BMW of Denver. I have the bill of sale and Colorado title from that purchase. This summer I relocated to New Mexico and have gone through the process of transferring titles of all my vehicles. The Norton should have been a slam dunk (or so I thought) because I have kept it registered and plated continuously in Colorado. Well when I went to the MVD office in New Mexico and they ran my title through the Colorado database it said that a new title was issued in 2016 and the new title superseded (purged) my title. I called Colorado DMV and was told over the phone to apply for a duplicate title which would purge any other titles. After applying for that I got a rejection letter stating that I should instead provide a new bill of sale for Purged Colorado Record. It seems like I'm getting the runaround from Colorado and I have a theory that the VIN is the issue. Since older British bikes used serial numbers and not modern VINs that are unique to each vehicle do you think that the same serial numbers could have been used by different manufacturers and that using the serial numbers as VINs could cause title issues like I have? I'm thinking about applying for a title search to find out make/model/year of the vehicle titled in 2016 using my Norton's serial number. Anyone else have issues like I have?
Thanks,
Doug
My bike has been essentially stolen even though I still have it. Here's the short version:

In 2005 a tractor was titled in MI with 310311 as the VIN (illegal - VINs by then must be 17 characters) The national system tracking VIN not yet in use.
In 2014 that tractor was sold to another MI company and the title transfered
In 1975 my Commando was imported from Scotland to PA - 310311
In 1977 my Commando was sold to the second owner in PA
In 2015 I bought my Commando and title is in VA without problem. It has been registered and insured ever since.
In 2022 the MI tractor was sold to another company in MI. Since it was a MI to MI transfer, they didn't bother with the national system.

VA now has a system that scans the national system looking for VA vehicles that have been sold. They use that rather that the required notification of sale by owners and summarily invalidate your title and registration. They do not bother to investigate or inform you. I happened to be on my online DMV account looking at something else when I noticed that my bike was shown as sold.

I call the DMV in Richmond (headquarters). That day I spent a couple of hours explaining to people that insisted it wasn't possible. Finally got a woman who would get me an answer in 48 hours after checking with MI. A week later, she left a message saying that my bike was titled in MI and nothing she could do.

That started a 9-hour phone session. Call VA, can do nothing - must call MI. Call MI, get cut off multiple times being transferred - each new call, explain, be told impossible. Call MI State Police to report the Grand Theft Auto or whatever they wanted to all it. Since not a MI resident, can do nothing - recommended I call the local police. Called the Fairfax country police. He investigated and cleared up one thing - it was not my motorcycle that was sold, and it was not a VA title that was transferred to MI, it was a MI tractor transferred to a new MI owner - neither the VA or MI DMS told me that. OK with that new info called the VA DMV back and once I finally (2 hours) got the woman back on the phone was nastily told that VA can do nothing, I must be fixed by MI. Called MI and FINALLY got a "technician" on the phone with the power to fix it. He at least understood the issue quickly but explain that the f'ing national system goes by the VIN alone so unless he can get a VIN check that disputes the tractor VIN, there no way to fix it.

That was 6 weeks ago - crickets.

Wrote to my state representative 21 days ago, crickets - not even an acknowledgment of the email.

Looks like I'll be parting my bike out. It's illegal to ride. Cannot be titled in the US. Cannot prove ownership to sell it outside the US.

No, VA will not allow me to re-title it with a new number. No, they won't let me retitle it with the frame number. They probably would allow a reconstructed title but then it would be a 2022 bike and would have to have standard plates, sales tax, personal property take annually, and would be a mess for my estate to sell when I'm gone.

So, if you own a properly titled Commando in the US, be scared, be very scared. At any moment, without warning, your state government can invalidate your title and registration. I'm very glad I didn't find out by being pulled over by a cop! As it is, officially, it's illegal for me to garage in Fairfax County since it's unregistered and a cop would consider it unregistered with a fake plate, and probably stolen.

Why doesn't this happen more? Other manufactures didn't just use 6 numbers. 1957-mid 1969 Triumphs were Hxxxxx (500cc) or DUxxxxx (650cc) and later they were made of three parts: Model, 2-character month of manufacture and then serial: the 70 Bonneville I have is T120RXD34675 and that is VERY clearly stamped into the frame and engine.

BTW, I keep saying national system. I've asked both VA and MI where they are looking up VINs and all they will say is "the national system". I would like to figure out what that is!
 
Wow! That is a real eye opener. So the "re-issued" title I have been referring to may not even be in Colorado but any US state. Like you said there was no explanation, title number or state given on the title lookup for my bike. Even if I find out about it there may be nothing I can do about it. I'll go back to the NMMVD office and see if they can do a nationwide search and if it's possible to re-title it. Thanks for the info.
 
Wow! That is a real eye opener. So the "re-issued" title I have been referring to may not even be in Colorado but any US state. Like you said there was no explanation, title number or state given on the title lookup for my bike. Even if I find out about it there may be nothing I can do about it. I'll go back to the NMMVD office and see if they can do a nationwide search and if it's possible to re-title it. Thanks for the info.
Try your local police. They can do the lookup and maybe they will tell you the whole story like mine did. VA kept saying my mothercycle was titles in MI until I told them it was a tractor - then they said that they knew!
 
My bike has been essentially stolen even though I still have it. Here's the short version:

In 2005 a tractor was titled in MI with 310311 as the VIN (illegal - VINs by then must be 17 characters) The national system tracking VIN not yet in use.
In 2014 that tractor was sold to another MI company and the title transfered
In 1975 my Commando was imported from Scotland to PA - 310311
In 1977 my Commando was sold to the second owner in PA
In 2015 I bought my Commando and title is in VA without problem. It has been registered and insured ever since.
In 2022 the MI tractor was sold to another company in MI. Since it was a MI to MI transfer, they didn't bother with the national system.

VA now has a system that scans the national system looking for VA vehicles that have been sold. They use that rather that the required notification of sale by owners and summarily invalidate your title and registration. They do not bother to investigate or inform you. I happened to be on my online DMV account looking at something else when I noticed that my bike was shown as sold.

I call the DMV in Richmond (headquarters). That day I spent a couple of hours explaining to people that insisted it wasn't possible. Finally got a woman who would get me an answer in 48 hours after checking with MI. A week later, she left a message saying that my bike was titled in MI and nothing she could do.

That started a 9-hour phone session. Call VA, can do nothing - must call MI. Call MI, get cut off multiple times being transferred - each new call, explain, be told impossible. Call MI State Police to report the Grand Theft Auto or whatever they wanted to all it. Since not a MI resident, can do nothing - recommended I call the local police. Called the Fairfax country police. He investigated and cleared up one thing - it was not my motorcycle that was sold, and it was not a VA title that was transferred to MI, it was a MI tractor transferred to a new MI owner - neither the VA or MI DMS told me that. OK with that new info called the VA DMV back and once I finally (2 hours) got the woman back on the phone was nastily told that VA can do nothing, I must be fixed by MI. Called MI and FINALLY got a "technician" on the phone with the power to fix it. He at least understood the issue quickly but explain that the f'ing national system goes by the VIN alone so unless he can get a VIN check that disputes the tractor VIN, there no way to fix it.

That was 6 weeks ago - crickets.

Wrote to my state representative 21 days ago, crickets - not even an acknowledgment of the email.

Looks like I'll be parting my bike out. It's illegal to ride. Cannot be titled in the US. Cannot prove ownership to sell it outside the US.

No, VA will not allow me to re-title it with a new number. No, they won't let me retitle it with the frame number. They probably would allow a reconstructed title but then it would be a 2022 bike and would have to have standard plates, sales tax, personal property take annually, and would be a mess for my estate to sell when I'm gone.

So, if you own a properly titled Commando in the US, be scared, be very scared. At any moment, without warning, your state government can invalidate your title and registration. I'm very glad I didn't find out by being pulled over by a cop! As it is, officially, it's illegal for me to garage in Fairfax County since it's unregistered and a cop would consider it unregistered with a fake plate, and probably stolen.

Why doesn't this happen more? Other manufactures didn't just use 6 numbers. 1957-mid 1969 Triumphs were Hxxxxx (500cc) or DUxxxxx (650cc) and later they were made of three parts: Model, 2-character month of manufacture and then serial: the 70 Bonneville I have is T120RXD34675 and that is VERY clearly stamped into the frame and engine.

BTW, I keep saying national system. I've asked both VA and MI where they are looking up VINs and all they will say is "the national system". I would like to figure out what that is!
Goodness.

That does sound a really stupid mess.
 
Here in Ontario there is never an issue , at least in my experience of 19 motorbike ownership transfers over the years . Plus if there is any issue , you could just swear /sign an affadavit with a J.P. or even the ministry of Transpo.
Lately we have had bigger problems with the Asian crime unit North York targeting rings stealing high end vehicles to go into containers to Nigeria / Africa where your new owner $hips are processed but quickly on the arrival dock !
They should make a movie...
🍿 📽️ :cool:

But seriously, I would have thought modern immobilizer would have slowed/stopped all but the most determined ramp truck drag aways.... ?:oops:
 
Goodness.

That does sound a really stupid mess.
Can't decide which is more stupid:
1) They only go by VIN
2) They don't realize that the 17-character VINs have been required since 1981
3) They have no override for what their computer does
4) They allow an illegal VIN to be titled (no such thing as a legal 6-character VIN in 2005)
5) By Virginia Law you must report a vehicle sold when you sell it. How can they mark it sold without arresting you for breaking the law!

How backwards can we get in 2022 - feels like the silliness that might have happened 50 years ago when computers were fairly new.
 
Here in Ontario there is never an issue , at least in my experience of 19 motorbike ownership transfers over the years . Plus if there is any issue , you could just swear /sign an affadavit with a J.P. or even the ministry of Transpo.
I hope you're knocking on wood - someone in Canada could come up with a bright idea to follow the US lead!

The 50 or so I've transferred here have resulted in 2 government caused problems and this is the only one that may be insurmountable.
 
I went through something very similar here in NC. After 42 years, and as the original owner, I was able to do a bare frame no money spared restoration/upgrades on my 7.73 850 Commando. Towards the end of the project ( I thought, more on that another time), I decided to get the paperwork sorted. I went to DMV (great down here) and presented a clean NY title, NY insurance cards and registration. The woman ran my VIN and said my numbers came up as stolen. She said someone could have had "fat fingers" typing in the numbers at some point. She said she was sure the info was incorrect, but I had to contact the NC Agency that handles this stuff, which I did.

An agent came here to my shop to take pics, inspect the matching numbers on the bike, my original title, insurance and registration cards, NY tag, receipts and pics from back in the day, etc. and said he was also confident I was the owner and he would help me to get a NC title. Interesting is that once he filed his report, I was able to get NC insurance, tag and registration so I could put it on the road. The DMV lady said it could take a year to get a title, but the great agent said 3-6 months even though I paid for it already. It's been about 6 months now and I plan on contacting him for a follow up.

He explained the system to me. Back in the day, before the federal program, and given the small amount of numbers used for VIN's, that sometimes the same VIN would be on different vehicles. He said my VIN was also related to a middle '60's Porsche and some American Car of the same vintage. He said in Ford's case, they might throw a letter like a "F" combined with the numbers for a VIN. When the feds took over, the confusion with the older vehicles started. So part of his investigation in my case was trying to track down any DMV or Insurance records on the other vehicles over many years. He quickly determined in 2 days that basically those vehicles no longer existed "in any system" and that he would push to get my title through. I only really cared because when I check out, I want my much younger wife to be able to sell all of my toys and other assets for tax free cash.

He said that he's found a lot of bikes through insurance records. In one case, a guy in CT bought a new Harley in the early 70's, and within a week it was stolen prior to him generating any paperwork and the follow up to find the bike was fruitless by the owner. He refiled a claim just a few years ago and my agent, through insurance records, found the completely restored bike in a Harley dealer, and the dealer had to give the bike back to the original owner with zero compensation.

I'm not so sure that my issue can help you, in my case I lucked out with a cool agent who was very knowledgeable and enthusiastic for people to have their restored vehicles on the road, include muscle cars from back in the day. You seem to have plenty of documentation but maybe try getting a different agent or insurance records to back your case. The dealer would have had to have it listed on an insurance policy (you would think) while he owned it.

Good luck with this and if I think of any other guidance I can give you after I contact my agent, I'll gladly pass it along.......
In my case, both VA and MI agree as do the local police that my bike was not sold and did not leave Virginia. They also agree that the MI title is for a tractor. There really is only one problem. The Virginia DMV uses a computer program that finds sold/stolen/disposed vehicles and marks the Virginia records. They swear that there is no override and that the system uses the VIN alone.

This is why I'm trying to get lawmakers involved. As far as I'm concerned, Virginia has, in effect. committed Grand Theft Auto and they have taken away my ownership and right to use my motorcycle and have made it illegal for me to have it in my garage!

Lay version of the Virginia law:
Grand Theft Auto in Virginia is taking another person’s vehicle with the intent to permanently deprive the owner of his property.
Since Grand Theft Auto in Virginia (Va. Code §18.2-95) is a form of Grand Larceny, the Commonwealth must prove all of the elements of Grand Larceny to convict an offender of a Virginia Grand Theft Auto charge. Grand Larceny is theft of property worth more than $200 or theft of property valued at $5 or more from a person.
 
Here is my story. My registration for my commando was put on hold by the state of pa because someone on another state tried to title a bike with the same vin. I had to fill out a form and prove I had a bike with that Vin then all was OK. Took a couple months. I know alot of folks on this site but there vins out there but I will never do that.
George
 
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