71 static timing question

I have been fooling around with the timing on my 71 for the day and I dont think I am getting anywhere. I mean I can get it to pop but thats about it.

I have done the following

confirmed both plugs have spark and carbs are feeding gas into the chambers....

rotated the right hand piston to 28degrees btdc in compression stroke as indicated on timing marks
placed nut and special washer to hold aau full advance and set the aau in the case
placed the breaker assembly in the case and rotated the aau till the right side breaker points were right before opening
locked the aau in with the normal bolt but kept the advance washer installed
rotated the left side piston to timing mark compresison stroke 28 degrees and adjusted the left side points with the seconrady adjustment screws

When I kick it over i get a pop here and there but I cannot for the life of me get the damn thing to start.

Forgive me if I am misunderstood or placing weird steps in there as I am working in a blast furnace (111 degrees!!!). I dont think its a great idea to work in the garage during these extreme temps but hey if anyone in the world appreciates it its probably you guys. I like the Norton that much. I dont think its a good idea though!!! I keep thinking the damn things gonna explode when I pul the plug since its so hot in here hahah


does anyone see anything I am missing or can unravel my thoughts on the subject? I would give a decent bottle of single malt for a youtube video on timing the norton. I went through the posts out there and see tons of great writeups and I also have the manual. I am going over it again and again and I just cant get her to fire off!

I have spark, gas, air, battery... Just not in the right order I guess!!!



Cheers,

Went back to the garage after ten min and after two kicks its BARELY running. If I give it gas it backfires. It doesnt idle hahah I am in business!!!

Now what the hell do I do!!!

I will keep reading and if anything it will be slight entertainment for the masses....

I can appreciate the sweating and freezing to get a runner when no one else at home cares. I'm had this happen a few times, ie: setting points to wrong jug coming up on Compression. Must be checked that both sets of valves are closed by loose lash in rockers. Not saying you missed the mark just I have more than once for frustration till re-re-re-checked. Condensors go bad and so can plug just stiiting about or new out of box, just saying as I've had to dig into trash a couple timne to get points going again. I use a indicator light to reveal point opening then eye ball the time mark till it starts then put time light on to dial both breakers on their 28-29' mark. Might have a feel of the ballast resitor that its not getting too hot touch as a clue it might be blocking voltage.

You got it running. That is something.
Now get a timeing light on it and set it right.
I do not care what they say, static is good to get it running so you can get a timing light on it, nothing more.

I pretty much eyeballed it all. I have a multimeter and I had it on the points for a few min but for some reason I just messed around going back and forth eyeballing it. Watching the points open then going back ever so slightly then setting it right to the point i "think" its right.


It starts second kick now but damn its runnin rough!

is it safe to say I need to get the strobe out and start with that now? Or am i still in the weeds?

Toming on these things is a beast (for me at least!!)

its only 90 degrees now! 8:06pm!

And I just came back from Alaska!

pvisseriii said:

You got it running. That is something.
Now get a timeing light on it and set it right.
I do not care what they say, static is good to get it running so you can get a timing light on it, nothing more.

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YUUUUP!


When I get this thing straight I will see what these dual PWK 32's are all about!

Ning fang wong etc .

Ordinarilly one sits it on a Beer crate ( haveing tossed the main stand in the intrests of cornering clearance , puts it in top gear .4 th .

To get the crank possitioned , one nudges the wheel across the drive line slack to nudge the crank around .This is a lot easier with the plugs out .
WE ALL clean te threads and put a drop of grease on before refitting . :|

WHEN you go past the timing mark , youve gone to far . AND have to go way back past ( a few degrees ) and back ( gentle nudges ) to SPOT ON .
Checking the infernal timing marks are spot on isnt a bad idea either .A ' spot off ' could be anything , and explain youre current dilemma . :lol:

The old find TDC with a stick down a plug hole , mark the stick , up 3/8 in , and turn back then nudge to the 3/8 mark and look to see if the ' timing marks '
are anywhere near alligned . Some rotors have a 'W' for Welded .Magnets to centre .Un ' W ' ed ones can rotate , explains discrepancies . other than others .

The timing chain slack , if youve just nudged it AFT not FORWARD , could forseably get say a degree and a half missplaced due to being at the wrong end of the Free Play .

RIGHT. That was Simple .

The Advance unit should rotate smoothly without catching / sticking .It also shouldnt move up & down a half inch if levered with the thumbs . Fingers . !
Shouldnt move radially moren a Gnats Di.. .

Therefor where ready . CIGGARETTE PAPER . Cut a 1/4 in wide strip .Clean Hands .Flick open C.B. wih screwdriver tip or similar , release to CATCH Paper .

Right Ho . AS the Cam is ADVANCED it will release the paper , ( one hand gently tensioning strip .)
The Points Gap influances the release point.Interrelated and the like .So we see theyre set . Spot on GAP . and both IDENTICAL . Same draw ( drag ) on feeler guage . Brass ones are real flash & much classier .

If the Blankety paper doesnt release , You swing the backing plate to get it ' There ' .With both points assy's initially st at ' Mid Range ' point .Middling even .
So a little bias either way , theyre still middling.NOT at one end as then youre out off adjustment .

SUMMING UP . Points set right , the paper will just draw clear as the Advance hits the stop. This equates to on ' Just Free ' .
Turniing on the IGNITION , and NOT moveing ANYTHING ELSE ( hide the kick start ) You should get a ' CRACK ' ( electrical )
and also a spark ( also electrical ) within a gnats di.. of it touching the stop .

This is as it hasnt got some burke levering it forward when running . It settles AT the STOP . . . . and SPARKS . Breakes the L.T. Circuit .
allows the coil to ' do its thing ' . Wonderous .
Really ive yet to see one not be dead on when checked with a stobe , if its in good condition , set this way .
Why some drongo can even mark the dwell angle on the houseing and with a poiner ( or Dist Rotor ) check the Dwell Angle . Which is what the POINTS GAP gives you ( Varies . Both . Therefore interrelated, directly . Therefore critical attention pays dividends .

NOW. The STROBE LIGHT CAN BE CONNECTED . ( as youve checked and if required remarked the timing marks , and maybe added a few . )
Now we can enjoy ourselves and CHECK the ADVANCE CURVE . What it sits at at idle. WHEN ( rpm's ) it starts to advance . The bump in the curve ( where the second sping starts ) LATER . Probably as the rpms are Reduceing not increaseing . AND what rpm's it hit Fully Advanced . AND if its STEADY there . Thanks .

Possibly the MALLORY site has drvle on correct adjustment of the Mallory ' Dual Point ' Distributor . In Plain American .Two points are used per lobe for reasons of DWELL .So theyre setting is critical too . And also pretty basic if you can gearoud to it .

Sounds like you need a fan aiming at the job . And a Beer . AFTER youve finished . Not Before .

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All the silly little 'U' clips to terminal posts need beating flat too . Better to solder end of wire & cut to 1/2 in , fit 2 washers on post / . Insultator ' T ' thing on post MUST be in good order too .
No stray hairs ( wire strand ) or conductive grit in the mechanism . ( from points ' cleaning ' .
Other possableity is duff Condensors / capacitors . Anything untouchable temp wise , working , is likely Shot .

All the backplate contraption should be flat & burr free . Screws same . All the old Lucas stuff cried similar bitzes . Screws , washers , insulators . if your stuck . A Lucas Dealer or classic car ( Hillman Hunter :lol: to ancient Rovers might provide suitable replacement fussy parts .)

Claen up any neccesary bits with small oil stone or file to remove welts / burrs . clean & oil . then wipe dry .

Nothing to it . . . :shock: :lol:

Have you cleaned the carbs and set the float right? Make sure your idle ports are clear by shooting carb cleaner into the screw port. It should come out in a couple of places. Do you have a weak battery? I was trying to start mine first time without the battery and I couldn't even get a poot out of it although I could see spark and fuel and compression. Put a fresh battery on it and it started right up. Don't need much, even a 2AH will do it unless you run it down. It may be your rotor is loosing magnetism too. I have found the AAU to be quite forgiving as far as setting timing. Hemmings just uses a simple 12V lamp to time his. Remember you get spark when the points open.

Dave
69S

Seems to me if you can get it started and it idles, but runs rough, carburation should be a suspect. You might want to start saving for those flatslides.

Diablouph said:

Seems to me if you can get it started and it idles, but runs rough, carburation should be a suspect. You might want to start saving for those flatslides.

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I have the jsmotorsport pwk's fitted brand new! Hope I dont need to mess with the carbs yet.... Once I get the timing adjusted perfect I will go in and adjust carb settings. When fitting the carbs the only thing I adjusted was the idle screws and throttle cable sync. I havent done anything with air mixture etc. They are brand new 0 miles on them.

OK now I havew some progress.....


I have the timing light out and the left cyl is perfect and the right one is at like 35 degrees and bouncing around a little on the timing mark. the right cyl is backfiring too.

Am I going to throw the left out of time when i adjust the right?

iceteanolemon said:

Am I going to throw the left out of time when i adjust the right?

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Not if you don't move the whole plate and only adjust the gap on the bad point.

Wandering around timing is usually an indication of wear between the cam and the centre shaft. Which also means it's nearly impossible to set the point(s) gap consistently, sometimes known as dwell.

I just love this Luddite stuff.

Dave
69S

DogT said:

iceteanolemon said:

Am I going to throw the left out of time when i adjust the right?

Click to expand...

Not if you don't move the whole plate and only adjust the gap on the bad point.

Wandering around timing is usually an indication of wear between the cam and the centre shaft. Which also means it's nearly impossible to set the point(s) gap consistently, sometimes known as dwell.

I just love this Luddite stuff.

Dave
69S

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My freaking timing light just gave out on me!!! Damn thing.

iceteanolemon said:

[My freaking timing light just gave out on me!!! Damn thing.

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Make sure you attach this to something other than your bike like your car battery.

Just for for curiosity sake, you did load test your battery, didn't you?

The Auto - Advance unit's got a vauge resemblance to something like THIS in there .



Might pay to pull that one contact breaker and give it the third degree .

Auckland Motorcycles had a sign . ' Rates "

$ 10 Per Hour .

If you stop and watch $ 20per hour .

if you stop and help $ 40 per Hr .
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The Moral being , half the stuff you have to sort out is previous errors and ommisions , & not neccesarilly by just the owner .

If the thing doesnt see sense in three goes , Id pull it and inspect it . In fact , if you have the time , If you pull , inspect , clean , lube and reassemble .
YOUve done what in Aircraft Terms , is a ' Major Inspection . Tick Off . DONE .

In Hour Terms the service shedule sees that the pilot shouldnt have to get out and walk . Its Called " preventive Maintanace " .

Biggest issue is correct fitting tools , and a delicate touch .The 3/4 drive ratchets a bit heavy for doing the points . 8)
accumulation of ' Noce ' spanners etc is more rewarding than unnessesary ' nice ' other bits .In fact its a prerequisite .

My batt is doing really good and when I was doing the timing with that crap timing light I was using my wifes car for powering the light. The thing was working well and I got a good reading from the left cyl but the right cyl was moving around a bit. I could never get it even on both cyl to 28 degrees. Then the timing light died on me. I tried it on a car and still didnt work, just faulty crap.

Now I am messing around and I have it starting first kick now and I noticed the new flatslides were idling high so some messing with the idle screws I have the bike idling lower too.

I fear the mixture is lean though as when I give a chunk of throttle quick it bogs. Maybe the next thing is to mess with raising the needles? I have been doing everything other than touching the carbs as of yet.... One of you guys wrote "99 percent of carburation problems are electrical" and that kinda stuck with me.

So even if its running just for hsits n giggles I bought the Old Britts ignition to add. I am sure the day I get it I will have the bike tuned well....

Am I on the right track or am I back in the woods? I feel like things are getting a bit better but damn the lesson for me is dont freakin change carburation AND timing at once! (At least for me) But I am that kinda guy that tears everything apart I get my hands on.

Not as hot today only hit 109!

Cheers,

Yea on adequate firing with dual trouble sparkers, triple counting the bob wt's on steady idle. If you don't have much experience in non accelerator pump carbs and snapping throttle off idle, then may think instant bog on a Norton is some strange issue to solve, but is universally normal to expect and once carbs set to perfection still requires adequate pilot sense to ease throttle for best off idle response.

Don't know if applies to your flat slides but once timing dialed in, I've gained a bit more off idle snap, [which I love to use on grass to dance rear while not going very fast] by raising float level, nipping a notch out of spray tubes and a .5 point richer slide and slightly rick set pilot screw. The factory AAU curve is about as abrupt available and helps off idle snap, noticeable compared to evenly rising curves.

This is a gaming side of my Norton hobby, engine response contests going no where with sports bikes just off idle to an equal amount of rpm rise, usually 5000. Carbs bikes choke stall, fuel injected bark better but delay pick up so a good Norton will out rip em to redline, so the higher rpm bikes I spot em 4000 rpm starts to my 2000.

hobot said:

Yea on adequate firing with dual trouble sparkers, triple counting the bob wt's on steady idle. If you don't have much experience in non accelerator pump carbs and snapping throttle off idle, then may think instant bog on a Norton is some strange issue to solve, but is universally normal to expect and once carbs set to perfection still requires adequate pilot sense to ease throttle for best off idle response.

Don't know if applies to your flat slides but once timing dialed in, I've gained a bit more off idle snap, [which I love to use on grass to dance rear while not going very fast] by raising float level, nipping a notch out of spray tubes and a .5 point richer slide and slightly rick set pilot screw. The factory AAU curve is about as abrupt available and helps off idle snap, noticeable compared to evenly rising curves.

This is a gaming side of my Norton hobby, engine response contests going no where with sports bikes just off idle to an equal amount of rpm rise, usually 5000. Carbs bikes choke stall, fuel injected bark better but delay pick up so a good Norton will out rip em to redline, so the higher rpm bikes I spot em 4000 rpm starts to my 2000.

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should I lower the needle a notch?

should I lower the needle a notch?

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duh like i should know. But what the heck might as well to get a sense of what that does to imply the next direction or step to take. Worse case of course is it don't do much at all which could mean the needle or jet is out of the ballpark size for mixture control or some other factor over looked. Response needs high vacuum to draw fuel up. There is least vacuum on slow rpm and sudden throttle opening. This is why accelerator pumps invented to give it gas-richness even w/o the air flow that high yet. Try the whole range as its possible to be too rich,ugh, in mixture like if choke left on. Dang British with their mystery theme characters to entrain us no end.

You need a lighter flywheel if you want instantaeneous responce , then Itll be crankey . Unintended wheelies and the like , sideways out of intersections .
Around a third of the travle around a the ' appropriate ' possition for load & revs is required . Mk IIs are better , but still requires considered modulation
of throttle at lower rpms . This is one reason that the 30 degree advance unit isnt a bad idea . It'll run more like a tractor below 3.000 rpm .Heavier Adv. Springs fitted .
Coarse use of throttle below 3.000 s permissable . Only problem is if your not paying attention and shift down , throttle open, and its not under 3.000 .
Thisis with the 2 S cam . With the Std. ' S ' its a lot more liveable . As in the powerband is seamless and its easier ' off the line ' Will pull from lower rpm's
when getting underway . 2 S theres nothing below 2.000 really . But you need nothing to keep up with the traffic , and if youre in top , thats not a consideration . in suberbia . Though the brakes need to work fairly well .