5 Speed gear box

Steve/Hobot, if and when you order your 5 or 6 speed just make sure they send you the right shift pattern that you ordered, I waited 6 months after pre paying and they sent me the wrong shift pattern, (was explicit about the shift pattern and the invoivice relates to my request) 1 down 4 up although I used to ride Triumphs of old , so no big deal, just prefer the 1 up 4 down. Have spoken to Bruce at TTI, was adamant he would send my another selector plate and talk me through the process, still waiting, and i live in New Zealand!!
fantastic box other wise, finished the first dyno run and I am seeing over 130 mph at 7000rpm in 5th gear , still some fettling to go!!!
Regards Mike

Hi Brooking

Bruce has been over here riding in the Manx

I got my box with the reverse camplate ie 1 down 4 up. I ride race pattern 1 up 4 down. Swapped my linkage rather than swap the camplate.
I am not sure if you can do that ie stock rules?

As to plus & minus of a 5 speed gearbox. None 5 is better, but then only for racing. On the track its 3rd down to 2nd that's the problem. The 5 speed cures that.

On the road with the big engine 4 is fine with a tuned 750 I intend running a triumph 5 speed box & see how I feel about it.

The TTi box is superb

QUAIFE CLOSE RATIO (Road) - Teeth
GEAR 1st. 2nd. 3rd. 4th 5th.
Mainshaft 14 17 19 21 22
Layshaft 27 23 21 19 18
Ratio 2.357 : 1 1.654 : 1 1.351 : 1 1.106 : 1 1.000 : 1



QUAIFE CLOSE RATIO (Racing) - Teeth
GEAR 1st. 2nd. 3rd. 4th. 5th.
Mainshaft 16 17 19 21 22
Layshaft 26 23 21 19 18
Ratio 1.986 : 1 1.654 : 1 1.351 : 1 1.106 : 1 1.000 : 1


STANDARD - Teeth
GEAR 1st. 2nd. 3rd. 4th.
Mainshaft 14 18 21 23
Layshaft 28 24 20 18
Ratio 2.556 : 1 1.704 : 1 1.217 : 1 1.000 : 1
Mainshaft 2nd. gear was 19 teeth from 1974 onwards; ratio 1.614 : 1


:? looks like onths still taller , so is just closeing the ratios ,

getting a wider spread , say 3.00 : 1 on first , with a 23 or 24 box sprocket , would get overdrive , And you could still get underway uphill loaded .

so the whole cabbodle requires a bit of thought . My thoughts youd go for a semi close four with a extra ( 5th ) first , a bit lower than stock .

I was quite surprised at what a 5-speed Quaife did on my first race bike, coming from a 4-speed stock box. It felt like I had nitrous when switching from 3rd to 4th to 5th! Really helped with downshifts too. A couple of years ago I rode Tom Kullen's Commando racer for a couple of laps at Miller. He had a stock box on the bike and I'd forgotten how wide they really are. I loved his bike, but the 4-speed was keeping it out of the power a lot of time and I felt like I was thrashing it. This is something to consider for those who feel like revving the hell out of their bikes. Tom now has a 5-speed.

I've been using TT boxes for a few years on our customer's and my own race bikes and can't say enough about them - they are almost bullet-proof. I change the oil 2x a season, and away we go. As a rule I'll pull them down in the off-season, but have never found anything to speak of. Herb Becker once made a good argument for the TT after I was having problems with my Quaife - he said, "If you figure in all the money you spend going to a race, entering, paying for incidentals, race gas, etc, then DNS due to a gearbox issue, you've paid for a chunk of the TT box already".

BTW - the first gear ratio I use is low and close to stock. This is for launching only. I have never had go back to 1st during any race on any race track here in the US.

Chris said:

Hi Brooking

Bruce has been over here riding in the Manx

I got my box with the reverse camplate ie 1 down 4 up. I ride race pattern 1 up 4 down. Swapped my linkage rather than swap the camplate.
I am not sure if you can do that ie stock rules?

As to plus & minus of a 5 speed gearbox. None 5 is better, but then only for racing. On the track its 3rd down to 2nd that's the problem. The 5 speed cures that.
On the road with the big engine 4 is fine with a tuned 750 I intend running a triumph 5 speed box & see how I feel about it.
The TTi box is superb

Click to expand...

re;” On the track its 3rd down to 2nd that's the problem”

Correct me if I am wrong, but there is a semi close ratio conversion that was available for the standard 4 speed box, I used one in my 750, you just have to replace 3 gears to convert it to close ratio 2,3,&4

Hey Mike, 130 is dang exciting especially on where ya pick to do it. I want to be able to drop clutch and slam gears w/o twisting shafts and taking out teeth. The TTI width threw off my plans for rear set linkage so ordered it opposite shift rotation for rear faced lever but the lever has to be fold-able or out of the way for crashing. Peel got around the wide ratio's with the tri-links so didn't have to slow down much to enter turns so even if not in power band was still faster than anything else going in and coming out. Its not me it the links and skinny tires as I couldn't get the balloon tires on moderns to hold such loads. Big surprise I'm still not over. On the wagon trail tight bluff face twisties not having as much acceleration power as 900+ sports bikes leaving turns is too scary d/t blinds to live that way long, so hope Peel's next power/mass will let me enter slower. Having a variable rear sprocket will help ease the compromises. I've looked into hydraulic drives and the variable infinite ratio types too but hydraulics are heavy and can't handle the rpms while the variable type are either too small or too bulky. Peel shift lever will have a stirrup like end the side of foot fits in so don't have to move foot out to get under or over it. Peels complication is road going is so boringly safe-predictable its the touchy off roading that's more on my mind not having to shift while standing on pegs catching air for the crashing I'm concerned with. Just keep throwing money at em and eventually find some bullet proof glee in Commandos just not designed for it.

Hi Bernard

You are correct. I had a box built for me with these gears. It seems you could mix & match them from various boxes. The Noc once suggested the gear numbers. I never got this box to work properly & resorted to RGM's conversion. Cheap & worked well.

Chris

Holmeslice said:

BTW - the first gear ratio I use is low and close to stock. This is for launching only. I have never had go back to 1st during any race on any race track here in the US.

Click to expand...

Speaking of not ever going back to 1st, just out of curiousity have you ever tried to do a whole lap anywhere ONLY in top, and recorded the lap time and difference in lap time ?

This comes from something that came up in F1, a good while back
It was noted at some track somewhere that Mr Schumachers lap times had dropped slightly.
The commentary speculated all sorts of things.
After yet another race win, Mr Schumacher (claimed) his box had jammed in top.
And had done the last 40 (?) laps like that.
Discussion after that was what were the other gears for ?
Fast track though, no real hairpins..

Commando is a strong torquey engine....

P.S. Have we mentioned yet that the 850 gearboxes had slightly different ratios to the 750's ?
It was said it was for noise testing purposes (lower revs = less noise), but this gives a slighter closer gearset.
2nd gear only, or 2nd and 3rd ??

Lore has it 850's got taller 2nd for the US noise regs, but its the cat's meow to me in a 750 as pulls to rather faster speeds and not so touchy to snick into 2nd with rear skipping and hopping engine rpm out of sight. Still how long do ya live so why not add gears to tempt ya to exercise them.

850s pull pretty strongly in top gear, what do you want slow for anyway ?

Somewhere, I had a BM that got stuck in 4th gear (5 sp box).
Rode it the 200+ miles home, was surprised how smooth and flexible and unfussed it was as a one speed !!
And Commando is much stronger in the torque dept ?
Although wouldn't recommend folks try this too hard, it probably was a bit tough on the clutch.
The uphill starts from a standstill did need a trace of paddling...

I had to come to terms that unless I essentially jumped Norton fence I had to cool my jets on a basic stocker which besides fragile near red zone is more a handful of upsets I've sworn off sprinting into. Did wring the snot of out Trixie a few times some months after rebuild so got out my system. Lingering impression - why bother with only mere Combat power. Peel lost her 3rd gear teeth playing with a cheating 900 Monster I'd waited behind a car for, heard the tinkles and lack of tire spin thrust on sharp tip out of lane to give chase, but didn't lock up into 4th only - until a 15 miles later into another leg of WOT red zone snicking through sharp blinds. Was able to limp home 35 miles in 4th only thanks to clutch slip and Norton torqe'n. Most nerve wracking was not being able to get below 30 mph w/o lugging chugging out on THE Gravel, woowhoo. Why do I expose myself to such stupid immature events and pay for the opportunity to do so? Trixie is still a 13 sec 1/4 m Combat that gets spunky w 19T about 90, but feels like damaging by 110.

SuVee 6spd is about a week of cosmetics to go, not ridden since goats but to deliver to a friend, so glad to have a ride but its a peddle bike to just get along and not worth runing near red line as torque falls off. Feels best in same rpm range as Cdo's 4500-5500 with its over drive but only delivers mid 40's mpg taken it normal, mid 30's pushing it.

Rohan said:

P.S. Have we mentioned yet that the 850 gearboxes had slightly different ratios to the 750's ?
It was said it was for noise testing purposes (lower revs = less noise), but this gives a slighter closer gearset.
2nd gear only, or 2nd and 3rd ??

Click to expand...

The 'A' versions (and MkIII?) had the taller 2nd gear only, and having recently got a Combat 750 on the road, the original box definitely has a better spread of ratios for 'normal use'.
The 'A' box is a pain going down into first - if you don't let the revs drop right down in 2nd the back end gets pretty lively. Can't recommend it for anything much!

Quaife did (do?) a drum-selector box, but I think it was primarily for the Manx/G50 guys. Anyone used one on a Commando?

I got a 'standard' Quaife box with a kickstart shaft from Mick Hemmings, but until I get my finger out and finish the bike it's fitted to I can't comment on what it's like

Rohan said:

Speaking of not ever going back to 1st, just out of curiousity have you ever tried to do a whole lap anywhere ONLY in top, and recorded the lap time and difference in lap time ?

This comes from something that came up in F1, a good while back It was noted at some track somewhere that Mr Schumachers lap times had dropped slightly.
The commentary speculated all sorts of things. After yet another race win, Mr Schumacher (claimed) his box had jammed in top.
And had done the last 40 (?) laps like that.

Click to expand...

Rohan, I have raced in a single gear before, more than once. One time in recent memory the clutch nut loosened (I have to fire my mechanic) and I lost all actuation. I could speed shift - upshifts were fine, but downshifting was always tricky, particularly while trying to send it in and stay in front. So I chose to keep it in a single gear (this was Barber, so I'm going to say 3rd gear). I took third in the race. ( I try, but I'm no Schumacher.) To your point, lap times were slower, but not as much as I'd thought.

Conversely, a lot of racing schools start with riders on the track not using brakes - going around and around, each time getting faster through the turns without grabbing a handful. I've never tried this, but supposedly one can get their times up near to where they are when using full controls.

Hairpin ( bends ) if you need to slip the clutch , indicates its fallen of the power band . So if theres another gear to change down to , it should be in it ,
the minimum speed gear , so you dont get snotted by the oposition . If the straight starts in the bend its critical , but if its a l o n g hairpin bend :? :x
where you cant get it full throttle , its of less significance .

Be very careful to try Code's no brake practice or come on out to THE Gravel or race in rain, as turns w/o thrust or drag on rear is 2nd most dangerous condition to put you and bike in. All's it teaches is to go extra slow. Look up any course that teaches police parking lot or gymkanna close quarters flings to see what they teach about rear drag or thrust to turn safer. Doing no brake turns with some speed will either low side ya on rear leading the way or slide front in counter steer to hi side off front, but they pull ya off track if ya do than even w/o crashing sheeze. You can turn dang sharp w/o brakes pretty fast but requires tipping over so far bike begins to fall-crash over on it own [low side] which will jerk fork into straight steer, which onsets a negative polarity wobble/weave, which can tank slap ya down unless of course ya got a bike that simply will not, then can work on adding power in those no brake entry states. Most dangerous state is braking while leaned or with front turned any.

Think-feel deep to your bones on why not having the acceleration of gear selection *does not* slow down track times very much for current design racers. Music to my ear bones.

Holmeslice said:

Rohan said:

Speaking of not ever going back to 1st, just out of curiousity have you ever tried to do a whole lap anywhere ONLY in top, and recorded the lap time and difference in lap time ?

This comes from something that came up in F1, a good while back It was noted at some track somewhere that Mr Schumachers lap times had dropped slightly.
The commentary speculated all sorts of things. After yet another race win, Mr Schumacher (claimed) his box had jammed in top.
And had done the last 40 (?) laps like that.

Click to expand...

Rohan, I have raced in a single gear before, more than once. One time in recent memory the clutch nut loosened (I have to fire my mechanic) and I lost all actuation. I could speed shift - upshifts were fine, but downshifting was always tricky, particularly while trying to send it in and stay in front. So I chose to keep it in a single gear (this was Barber, so I'm going to say 3rd gear). I took third in the race. ( I try, but I'm no Schumacher.) To your point, lap times were slower, but not as much as I'd thought.

Conversely, a lot of racing schools start with riders on the track not using brakes - going around and around, each time getting faster through the turns without grabbing a handful. I've never tried this, but supposedly one can get their times up near to where they are when using full controls.

Click to expand...

Kenny - well done on getting on the podium with a stuck box!

Earlier this year at Kirkistown, a fast, flowing circuit in Northern Ireland, I had fitted a smaller sprocket by mistake, which effectively meant that I had a 5 speed instead of a 6 speed box. There wasn't enough time to correct this before the first race so I had to live with it. I got a better race average with the higher gearing than with the previous gearing, which surprised me at the time, and I managed a 2nd.

Changing gear on a classic bike takes time. The extreme example of this is when someone misses a gear and you get by them. But your bike needs a reasonable spread of power to manage with fewer changes. The short track of my local circuit, Mondello Park, is 1.2 miles, with a lot of tight corners. On track days, I often circulate just in 3rd gear on a modern sports bike with stock gearing and still manage reasonable times. On the other hand, in real roads racing, with much faster straights and hairpins, you need all six ratios to keep the thing 'on the pipe'.

When I first tried to race the Seeley 850, I used a standard box and it was revolting. NO downwards gear change was ever smooth, they always took a heap of revs. I bought a four speed CR cluster, and the bike was perfect everywhere except off the start. I noticed that after every gear change there was no lag, and the motor was spinning up too quickly, so I dropped the rear sprocket size by one tooth. Nothing much changed however the bike went quicker and the starts became more impossible. I think the answer with the 4 speed box is to use a very low first gear, and leave the rest close and high. With the 4 speed CR box, I never went back to first after the start, on our local circuit. The gearing on my bike is very deceptive, - I believed it was correct ,however when I increased it the bike simply unexpectedly went much faster. I'm not used to bikes with motors that pull as hard as the commando, and I believe it is that engine's major strength. I never believed in it and now I love it.