1972 750 Hi-Rider

Mart UK said:
About 2:1 on gearing, a front tooth sees action twice as often as a rear tooth.
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Yes, and that's about the replace rate on a Triumph. A Norton rear runs much longer than that and it's not even steel so I'm relatively sure that it's the hardening that makes them last.
 
quawk said:
I really like the look of your bike in the posted pics and can appreciate the time, work, and ingenuity it took to make this swap happen. Great job. That said I'm really a sucker for the spoked wheels, front drum brake, and the pea shooter mufflers. To me, those things say Norton. I'm sure your bike outperforms the original setup with your mods, especially the front disc brake. I realize Norton did start using a front disc brake
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Cool, everyone should go for the look and features they like when they restore their commando. I do like the drum brake and spokes look up front too. My bike actually had a drum brake from the factory but it got swapped for the disc 40 years ago for better braking. Lot's of owners keep the spoke look. You should look at this website (below) just to see what aftermarket parts are available before you start your restoration. It sucks to spend money on something marginal only to find out after the fact that you could have done it differently. Don has a really nice front drum with a double leading shoe linkage for the front hub, and lots of other improved parts for commando.



good luck on your build!
 
o0norton0o said:
Cool, everyone should go for the look and features they like when they restore their commando. I do like the drum brake and spokes look up front too. My bike actually had a drum brake from the factory but it got swapped for the disc 40 years ago for better braking. Lot's of owners keep the spoke look. You should look at this website (below) just to see what aftermarket parts are available before you start your restoration. It sucks to spend money on something marginal only to find out after the fact that you could have done it differently. Don has a really nice front drum with a double leading shoe linkage for the front hub, and lots of other improved parts for commando.



good luck on your build!
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I checked out the website that you linked to and that guy (Don as you called him) turns out some beautiful parts, and I don't know if those are current prices that are listed, but they don't seem crazy for what you're getting. I know that we're going to spend money on bringing one of these bikes back to life, but I usually take a frugal approach to doing so. I don't mind spending money on what a bike really needs, but buying the pretties and farkles just for appearance improvement are usually left off of my bikes. I realize things like his brake set ups would make the bike stop better and are more than just an appearance items. Maybe I'm just cheap but I have and have had in the past several bikes that I'm proud of how they turned out without braking the bank as they say. As I've mentioned in previous posts, I haven't purchased this bike that I posted about, ,,,,,,,yet, but joined this forum to get a feel and advice on what it's going to take to revive it if I were to purchase it. I do really appreciate all the help and advice I've already received from all responders.
 
quawk said:
(snip) I haven't purchased this bike that I posted about, ,,,,,,,yet, but joined this forum to get a feel and advice on what it's going to take to revive it if I were to purchase it. I do really appreciate all the help and advice I've already received from all responders.
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There is a lot of knowledge on this forum and many helpful people.

A few comments:

Commandos - especially those sold east of the Mississippi were often sold with "undated" titles as sort of a scam. There was a significant break ("brake?") between specifications starting at New Years of 1972. You can identify a motorcycle with the factory 1971 spec by looking at the engine case next to the serial number -- if there's a metal "L" fitting and a rubber breather hose, it's factory-spec for '71 and you should always buy 1971 parts (if you decide to pick this motorcycle up). If this breather isn't there, it's a factory-'72, parts accordingly.

The H*-R*d*r (the motorcycle sin that must never speak its name) was introduced in mid-71 as the same time as the "SS" (street-scrambler). I don't know if it was meant to be a short-term model* but it managed to last while the "SS" quickly faded away (Berliner refused to take the "SS" models after a while). The tank on these models was modeled on the tank on the Norton P-11 desert racer of the mid-late 60s for the "SS" and carried over to the HR. They were glassfibre until very late in the Commando's life when a few HRs ('74 and '75) were built with steel tanks; the steel tanks will replace a glass tank (and should) but they're hens' teeth and expensive. The first HRs were built with drum brakes and that was continued into 1972, even when the Roadster and Interstates were supplied ~100% with discs but about mid-72 (or maybe a bit later), the disc became standard on the HR, too. (I personally wouldn't use a 50-year-old glass tank for anything but cutting the top off of it and using it as a houseplant pot but if you happen to get a very good one and you have access to non-ethanol fuel, one might work for you for a while -- still, I think you're going to need to plan for a new steel tank. I take that back -- my original Production Racer glass tank from 1972 is going to hold my ashes in the not-too-distant future -- but you get my drift here.)
If you like a drum brake, there are some "improvement" kits that, added to careful assembly, will give you a very useful and enjoyable front drum. (Lipstick on a pig, maybe, but if you want a drum, it's worth doing.)

You say that the bike that you're looking at has "extended front forks". If you intend to get any of the performance that these motorcycles were built for, you'll need to get rid of those. They can make for some really nasty handling/stability situations. (I have some fork legs - stock - with bushes and seals that I'll send you for free if you pay the postage. They're a little pitted in some places but they'll work OK for a while. They come with the bushes and seals because I'm redoing my front forks with Don Pender's "Lansdowne" dampers and NYC Norton/Constantino polymer bushes.) It would be a shame to put work and money into a Commando that you could only putter around on like an old lady without fearing it was going to throw you on the road and stomp you butt - AMHIK.

I guess you've gotten the idea that I am not crazy with how this particular motorcycle sounds as the subject for a project to become an enjoyable rider. You seem to have a great attitude and the background to do a good job with anything as a "starter kit" but if I were you (especially considering the rust and corrosion issues on this one), I'd look for something in better condition.
Also, don't pay too much. Back in the day, this model was highly prized by a few people and they were keen to pay a premium to obtain one but the overall market value wasn't impressive. There's a mythology that they're a rare and particularly valuable model -- which is true for "SOME PEOPLE" but the average rider isn't likely to pay much more than for a similar Roadster or Interstate model. If the seller thinks he has something $$$pecial and wants a higher than the going price, it might be a good thing to make polite apologies and just back away.
 
Reading through this thread is not clear if the OP has bought the bike or is still considering buying it. If not, I would have a look at eBay. I mentioned in another thread that there are two decently priced Norton's listed and that they will consider an offer - offer less! They have been trying to sell both for months. Both are all matching numbers and clear titled. I have bought from the seller a few times without issue.

To make stock a frame/frame repair is needed: https://www.ebay.com/itm/3751636078...k9SR-D7ntycYw&LH_ItemCondition=3000|1000|2500

Needs engine work and to make stock, exhaust: https://www.ebay.com/itm/1761525925...k9SR8anqtycYw&LH_ItemCondition=3000|1000|2500
 
marshg246 said:
Reading through this thread is not clear if the OP has bought the bike or is still considering buying it. If not, I would have a look at eBay. I mentioned in another thread that there are two decently priced Norton's listed and that they will consider an offer - offer less! They have been trying to sell both for months. Both are all matching numbers and clear titled. I have bought from the seller a few times without issue.

To make stock a frame/frame repair is needed: https://www.ebay.com/itm/375163607831?hash=item57597e5b17:g:DB0AAOSwROljWuw8&amdata=enc:AQAIAAAA4PvFYvyB6OgH03ALX30eu7tko0Z+UeM2Xz4rVSbwcl9yyxwDMsKO11TS1w19GyfH43ts4VvHnGYUQABbwEq0QcO3aAtqVhKHqkQE7CheB68kdgozPFSnd5lTb4ZUUEb82Vn1O29u9M5QjkndJ4oLblkBKRc3s6GmZ+EKo0rc5asblS747kFMtfHYzHO/5Tx3E8o4ncPWZB+wPL0AWVyZNmHm7jc42tt7tT46mdpPMQ+S8eyLq/81oPkjmz4kIOk7GDpLgpWgI81szILDv3mgn8ZVVewW5auxFQkhvsyn4C6D|tkp:Bk9SR-D7ntycYw&LH_ItemCondition=3000|1000|2500

Needs engine work and to make stock, exhaust: https://www.ebay.com/itm/176152592587?hash=item29038340cb:g:FU4AAOSwD21jWvAf&amdata=enc:AQAIAAAAwMcz8rmMDdlkDbjOq+Pur2I1iVmrzeOIyKmEAe9Tk2KWOiwCuN6LsxfzEuomqb4WZCCKA5NqwDGyi8AA2J5Asq1bFnODb11SrcoswtIq0UsbXzmN0nmKHObUkfeYCzf5fpjaSptKuuUElY4cEzPtdhZAfekGGwzorLWvrs2e7BO1iMtP9kau0qrCGs23LBfe+U5MJNgLS7r1rKEB1ozbAKErud5L/SYNFFjGQfMbq3oINGV+43um1IcZ4xgymte/ew==|tkp:Bk9SR8anqtycYw&LH_ItemCondition=3000|1000|2500
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Not sure what the "OP" reference is, but if it means original poster, that's me. And as I've said in recent posts to this thread, no I haven't purchased this bike,,,,, yet! But it still isn't off the table. Trying to gain info here on the forum so when/if I go to meet with the owner again, I've got some legitimate ammunition to hopefully bargain a better deal than his asking price. And who knows, maybe that was just a "throwing it out there price" for a starting point, and he may be willing, without much bargaining to lower his price. Some owners here on the forum may discount this, but to me, buying from the original owner (this is now over 50 years, it's a '72), relatively low mileage (12,000, again over 50 years), and is nearby (about 30 minutes away from me) are things to consider. I've never had a bike shipped, but I have traveled considerable distances to purchase bikes, and being nearby is worth something, to me anyway. Going to continue to research and give it some time and eventually go back prepared to negotiate.
 
quawk said:
Not sure what the "OP" reference is, but if it means original poster, that's me. And as I've said in recent posts to this thread, no I haven't purchased this bike,,,,, yet! But it still isn't off the table. Trying to gain info here on the forum so when/if I go to meet with the owner again, I've got some legitimate ammunition to hopefully bargain a better deal than his asking price. And who knows, maybe that was just a "throwing it out there price" for a starting point, and he may be willing, without much bargaining to lower his price. Some owners here on the forum may discount this, but to me, buying from the original owner (this is now over 50 years, it's a '72), relatively low mileage (12,000, again over 50 years), and is nearby (about 30 minutes away from me) are things to consider. I've never had a bike shipped, but I have traveled considerable distances to purchase bikes, and being nearby is worth something, to me anyway. Going to continue to research and give it some time and eventually go back prepared to negotiate.
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We use OP for Original Poster. IMHO (In my humble opinion) the price is a little high buy not terrible assuming it is complete, the engine turns, the gearbox shifts, all numbers match, and has a clear title. Pictures would help. If you want to make it a like new Roadster, you will be into it for $10k-$12k. Rebuilding the engine and gearbox, assuming you do all yourself is not overly expensive. It's all the other stuff that mounts up.

If patient, shipping is $450-$600 from the middle of the country to the coasts. Being able to go see it and pick it up is a big bonus - one I seldom have - every bike I've bought this century except one has been shipped.

BTW, I've only bought one Norton with over 10k miles - most in the US ride them very little. I bought a 74 850 with 2800 original miles (best I could tell) for $3200 delivered to Virginia from Kentucky. It was a complete a hi-rider with 6" extended forks but had no title. So, I used it to build a mostly missing/bad basket case one with a title.
 
quawk said:
Upon doing much research, as I posted earlier, about the layshaft bearing issue, it was mentioned by some that the use of a 22 tooth gearbox drive sprocket was suspected as a culprit contributing to the failure of the bearing, seemingly from increased loading. As an aside to that, it was also mentioned that owners would change drive sprockets to change gearing, rather than the rear sprocket because the rear sprocket was cast into the rear hub and only one tooth count sprocket was available. Have I read that correctly, because that seems so odd? If that's the case what happens when/if the rear sprocket needs replaced? Chains and sprockets are commonly replaced wear items on most bikes.
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My 70 bearing went south on a 19 T. sprocket .
 
marshg246 said:
We use OP for Original Poster. IMHO (In my humble opinion) the price is a little high buy not terrible assuming it is complete, the engine turns, the gearbox shifts, all numbers match, and has a clear title. Pictures would help. If you want to make it a like new Roadster, you will be into it for $10k-$12k. Rebuilding the engine and gearbox, assuming you do all yourself is not overly expensive. It's all the other stuff that mounts up.

If patient, shipping is $450-$600 from the middle of the country to the coasts. Being able to go see it and pick it up is a big bonus - one I seldom have - every bike I've bought this century except one has been shipped.

BTW, I've only bought one Norton with over 10k miles - most in the US ride them very little. I bought a 74 850 with 2800 original miles (best I could tell) for $3200 delivered to Virginia from Kentucky. It was a complete a hi-rider with 6" extended forks but had no title. So, I used it to build a mostly missing/bad basket case one with a title.
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I find it curious that most of the bikes you've purchased have been shipped. You must be more trusting than I am because as I've said I've never had a bike shipped, either as a buyer or seller. I know many guys have bikes shipped all the time. You also mention having purchased one of your bikes without a title. You had a rather unique situation there as far as, apparently using the basket case title for the more complete bike or some combination of the two. I question the legality of that, but I'm sure that's been done before. That's something else that I've resisted the urge to do, buying something without a title, at least on a vehicle that I intend to register, plate, and drive on the street. I have purchased older dirt bikes, quads, 3-wheelers, mini-bikes etc., without titles but many of them didn't have titles to begin with and aren't street legal anyway. I also find it curious that you say in your humble opinion the price is a little high. I have never stated how much the owner is asking for the bike.
 
Torontonian said:
My 70 bearing went south on a 19 T. sprocket .
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I've put many a mile on a 24-tooth sprocket (~7,000 Rpm) on my PR with no bearing problems.

I've heard some people say that it's easier on a drive train if there's not a perfect division between front and rear sprockets (i.e. 21 t front x 42 t rear = bad, 23 t front x 42 t rear = good) but I don't know if this is a real thing and if it is, whether it really means anything in practice.
 
Blewdy Yaink said:
I've heard some people say that it's easier on a drive train if there's not a perfect division between front and rear sprockets (i.e. 21 t front x 42 t rear = bad, 23 t front x 42 t rear = good) but I don't know if this is a real thing and if it is, whether it really means anything in practice.
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A Complete Guide to Sprockets

We cover what sprockets are, how they work and what they’re used for, as well as the different types that are available.
th.rs-online.com th.rs-online.com
"Hunting tooth - These have an uneven number of teeth, meaning they tend to last longer than other types because every time it turns, the links engage a new set of teeth. This means each tooth makes contact only half as many times as other types of sprocket, helping it last longer."
 
quawk said:
I find it curious that most of the bikes you've purchased have been shipped. You must be more trusting than I am because as I've said I've never had a bike shipped, either as a buyer or seller. I know many guys have bikes shipped all the time. You also mention having purchased one of your bikes without a title. You had a rather unique situation there as far as, apparently using the basket case title for the more complete bike or some combination of the two. I question the legality of that, but I'm sure that's been done before. That's something else that I've resisted the urge to do, buying something without a title, at least on a vehicle that I intend to register, plate, and drive on the street. I have purchased older dirt bikes, quads, 3-wheelers, mini-bikes etc., without titles but many of them didn't have titles to begin with and aren't street legal anyway. I also find it curious that you say in your humble opinion the price is a little high. I have never stated how much the owner is asking for the bike.
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Never been screwed buying remote bikes. Of course, I've never bought from the places where you get screwed (Facebook, Craigslist, etc.) All have been eBay or from forum people.

It's very common to use parts from other bikes build another. Most used parts for sale today are from breakers (people who part out bikes with no titles). I had a matching set of cases and frame and lots of missing/bad parts. I used parts from a non-titled bike while building that one. Nothing illegal about it. When done, the "parts bike" cases were simply left over. Since it was a 750, the frame was simply a left over part.

I mixed up post #4 which has a price - I have no idea what your seller is asking. That said, with the little info you provided and no pictures:

Drum front brake: $2800 max, all in
Disc front brake: $3200 max, all in
Disk front brake and Combat: $3500 max, all in

Most people who ask me to build a bike want a 750 Combat or an 850 - probably for nostalgia.

BTW, Norton had no model years. It is common for the year on the title to be later than the actual year built - when the dealer got the title, they specified the year.
 
L.A.B. said:

A Complete Guide to Sprockets

We cover what sprockets are, how they work and what they’re used for, as well as the different types that are available.
th.rs-online.com th.rs-online.com
"Hunting tooth - These have an uneven number of teeth, meaning they tend to last longer than other types because every time it turns, the links engage a new set of teeth. This means each tooth makes contact only half as many times as other types of sprocket, helping it last longer."
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Sorry, I may have misunderstood, but isn't that nonsense? Whether it touches the same link of the chain on each rotation will also depend on the number of chain links. But, I can't see how "each tooth makes contact only half as many times". It makes contact every revolution. A 41 tooth will make contact 1/42 times more often than a 42 tooth.
 
Mart UK said:
Whether it touches the same link of the chain on each rotation will also depend on the number of chain links.
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Yes.
Mart UK said:
But, I can't see how "each tooth makes contact only half as many times". It makes contact every revolution. A 41 tooth will make contact 1/42 times more often than a 42 tooth.
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Same for gears.
shoppress.dormanproducts.com

Prime numbers are the secret to prolonged gear life

Power transmission brawn starts with brains.
shoppress.dormanproducts.com shoppress.dormanproducts.com
 
Irving was a big fan of the hunting tooth.
That's why the timing marks I made on the 1360 engine only line up again after several hundred turns, I've forgotten the number.

Glen
 
Yep, no argument on gears. Not the same for chains and sprockets, as the front sprocket never touches the rear and which links it touches and how frequently, depends on how many links there are. Just seems to me like a good engineering concept used in the wrong way? And the part about making contact half as many times, I can't see what that means. Happy to be educated though.
 
Mart UK said:
Yep, no argument on gears. Not the same for chains and sprockets, as the front sprocket never touches the rear and which links it touches and how frequently, depends on how many links there are. Just seems to me like a good engineering concept used in the wrong way? And the part about making contact half as many times, I can't see what that means. Happy to be educated though.
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Sideplates only. It's easy to see the wear patterns from side plates, either equal or skip tooth.
Not a big deal, JMWO.
 
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