1970 Factory Racer on the Block

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WZ507

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FYI. At the upcoming Mecum Las Vegas auction. 10 pictures to look at - let's hear your opinion as to what's right, wrong or questionable about the bike.

https://www.mecum.com/lot-detail.cfm?lot_id=LV0115-200918

There are also several other Norton models and years at auction. On the mecum site in the top middle right there is a red search button where you can specify the auction (in this case Las Vegas), choose a marque, and search. Happy hunting. Will be interesting to visit the site post auction and see what price range the various bikes brought.
 
For something like that, the certificate that the NOC can supply that says the numbers have been checked
and it is what its claimed to be is a good start.
Unless there is paperwork to prove it, the value should be treated accordingly.
But is often overlooked.

Doesn't a quaife box say 'Quaife' on the outside.
Or are we only talking of an added gear cluster.

It does look nice and shiny though. !
Not too difficult to build up something similar looking though, probably at vastly less than it will sell for ?
 
Tank is not a PR, probably a Gus Kuhn. Tail light housing color has changed from when Ron owned it. Something about the back of the timing case doesn't seem right. My '71 had a 3 bolt block off plate where the distributor used to be on the earlier Commandos.

http://www.nortoncommando.com/

Look under For Sale
 
Rohan said:
Doesn't a quaife box say 'Quaife' on the outside.
Or are we only talking of an added gear cluster.
Click to expand...

The Quaife 5-speed cluster was an optional extra for the PR, but they used the standard AMC case and covers. The only difference was that the outer cover, on the lip above the shifter shaft where the gear indicator pointer was located, was stamped with numbers for 5 speeds instead of 4.

Ken
 
Reg Curley tank, I think.

Doesn't mean it's not the correct one for that bike...
 
Deckard said:
Tank is not a PR, probably a Gus Kuhn. Tail light housing color has changed from when Ron owned it. Something about the back of the timing case doesn't seem right. My '71 had a 3 bolt block off plate where the distributor used to be on the earlier Commandos.

http://www.nortoncommando.com/

Look under For Sale
Click to expand...

The first M3 (1968/69) cases had the points housing mounted in that location, and the last M3S ('71?) cases also had the aperture machined out but a blanking plate fitted.
I believe this was for an electric start which never got to production.
The 1970 M3S cases were plain cast at this point
Dyno Dave's site covers it here:
http://atlanticgreen.com/engcases.htm

I have a PR-spec motor (not saying 'Original' BTW) which is within 200 of this serial and it's the same, so the bike does look to be essentially correct in this regard.

It also looks pretty good in all other respects. It would be interesting to see what's inside the cylinder head - mine has the larger inlet valves, but they retain standard geometry. I'm in the process of re-cutting the new valve seats a little deeper to overcome a valve-clash issue. :roll:
I thought I'd been sold a dog until I was informed by a knowledgeable forum member (johntickle) that the early PR heads were done like this.
 
B+Bogus said:
I thought I'd been sold a dog until I was informed by a knowledgeable forum member (johntickle) that the early PR heads were done like this.
Click to expand...

So there are dogs, and factory dogs ??
 
This looks like the real deal. The 1970 Production racers had the Atlas style silencers and the "blind" crankcases (without the blanking plate). The petrol tank is not a Gus Kuhn, it's the large version of the PR tank.
 
1974 Commando advertised as being in 'Rare' Black colour and comes with a 'Key' , why do they pad the description out with such rubbish.
 
kommando said:
1974 Commando advertised as being in 'Rare' Black colour and comes with a 'Key' , why do they pad the description out with such rubbish.
Click to expand...

I like a bit of sarcasm after all There are less black Model T Fords than there are black commando roadsters.

J
 
I think Rohan is correct, you could build similar for much cheaper than this bike will bring at auction. However what you built would never be AUTHENTIC and that is where the value lies. The next question is why would you want to own the real deal ? - it belongs in a museum, not being trashed by racing it where it will never be competitive without modification . What really pisses me off is when somebody with heaps of dosh looks at motorcycle road racing as an outlet for their macho crap, buys the real deal then bumbles around effectively destroying it. We have millionaires buying genuine manx nortons doing this stuff, and wouldn't know where their backsides are. Thankfully the most recent example of this idiocy bought a Molnar Manx as well and put the genuine item in his lounge room.
 
acotrel said:
I think Rohan is correct, you could build similar for much cheaper than this bike will bring at auction. However what you built would never be AUTHENTIC and that is where the value lies. The next question is why would you want to own the real deal ? - it belongs in a museum, not being trashed by racing it where it will never be competitive without modification . What really pisses me off is when somebody with heaps of dosh looks at motorcycle road racing as an outlet for their macho crap, buys the real deal then bumbles around effectively destroying it. We have millionaires buying genuine manx nortons doing this stuff, and wouldn't know where their backsides are. Thankfully the most recent example of this idiocy bought a Molnar Manx as well and put the genuine item in his lounge room.
Click to expand...

Alan , you pays your money and you takes your chance, money talks bullshit walks. If the millionaire with his fleet of Norton Manx bought as an investment or to race gets as much pleasure as I do in my workshop with my commandos fixing old bust bits of original parts then he is a happy man. Not that I or they for that matter cares a jot what other Folkes opinions are.
Once you've bought a thing you can do as you please with it just like all the old gold raced at Goodwood every year. Power to them I say!
J
 
auldblue said:
kommando said:
1974 Commando advertised as being in 'Rare' Black colour and comes with a 'Key' , why do they pad the description out with such rubbish.
Click to expand...

I like a bit of sarcasm after all There are less black Model T Fords than there are black commando roadsters.

J
Click to expand...
Henry Ford addressed it straight away for Model Ts when in informed "Any customer can have a car painted any color that he wants so long as it is black."
 
Rohan said:
B+Bogus said:
I thought I'd been sold a dog until I was informed by a knowledgeable forum member (johntickle) that the early PR heads were done like this.
Click to expand...

So there are dogs, and factory dogs ??
Click to expand...

Only the ones where the owner was trying to do the minimum cutting back on the valve seats!
A local tuner has told me that cutting the seats far back has no adverse performance effect.
Reassured, I am.
 
Hi

I brought some bits from an ex Thruxton mechanic who raced a 750 commando. His inlet valves were cut back deep in the seat. He said the big valve messed up the flow & he didn't use them & still cut the valves back as he thought it flowed better.

Chris
 
auldblue said:
acotrel said:
I think Rohan is correct, you could build similar for much cheaper than this bike will bring at auction. However what you built would never be AUTHENTIC and that is where the value lies. The next question is why would you want to own the real deal ? - it belongs in a museum, not being trashed by racing it where it will never be competitive without modification . What really pisses me off is when somebody with heaps of dosh looks at motorcycle road racing as an outlet for their macho crap, buys the real deal then bumbles around effectively destroying it. We have millionaires buying genuine manx nortons doing this stuff, and wouldn't know where their backsides are. Thankfully the most recent example of this idiocy bought a Molnar Manx as well and put the genuine item in his lounge room.
Click to expand...

Alan , you pays your money and you takes your chance, money talks bullshit walks. If the millionaire with his fleet of Norton Manx bought as an investment or to race gets as much pleasure as I do in my workshop with my commandos fixing old bust bits of original parts then he is a happy man. Not that I or they for that matter cares a jot what other Folkes opinions are.
Once you've bought a thing you can do as you please with it just like all the old gold raced at Goodwood every year. Power to them I say!
J
Click to expand...

If you owned the Mona Lisa, would you hang it in your toilet ? Some people say that something is only worth what you can get for it when you sell it - know the price of everything and the value of nothing. Goodwood is a totally different thing to the average run of historic racing - most of what is there is genuine with little modern modification. In any case you won't get a run with a Norton Commando Production Racer there. It is probably a good thing that Rob Ianucci bought a lot of the MVs - at least they still exist largely without butchering. I still see Manx Nortons with Honda front brakes at historic meetings and it makes me feel sick. The excuse is - 'it could have existed that way'.
 
Alan, by the sounds of that last post ,it's just as well you can't get burnt at the steak these days. I am not doing you down but if you pay the piper you call the tune. And if Honda brakes on a Manx makes you sick, so be it!

J
 
Chris said:
Hi

I brought some bits from an ex Thruxton mechanic who raced a 750 commando. His inlet valves were cut back deep in the seat. He said the big valve messed up the flow & he didn't use them & still cut the valves back as he thought it flowed better.

Chris
Click to expand...

Interesting - There seems to be a consensus on the valve seats being OK recessed, but I'm struggling to see how the bigger valves messed the flow unless there was something else going on like a mis-match with the inlet tract/ over-porting or... :?:
Bigger valves are still considered a 'Good Thing', although the benefit of progress (fullauto) seems to show that a better designed exhaust port works better.
Perhaps we'll never know ;)

So, back to the original topic :oops: It still looks good when compared to period documentation: The downpipes have the correct bend, together with the 1 5/8 flare to accommodate the silencers, and the kickstart looks right... but it does have a later non-authentic cush-drive rear wheel :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock:

An easy 'fix' would be to change the cover plate for the 3-hole type, but it wouldn't put me off if I was in the market - just saying...
 
If I was a rich man :roll: I would buy it and then ride it, not put it in a musem or a display case, riding it like it should be and thats the fun part about riding our old bikes and if its gets batted from riding it on the road then be it as you can always rebuild it when the time comes, classic bikes should be riden not put away for just a few eyes to druel over it, but I wouldn't race it on the track, its more a road going bike and being a bright yellow colour it will atrack a lot of intrests from nomal poeple and other bike riders for sure, but then thats my opinion and I am sure there will be other that would just keep it in their lounge room forever.

By the way its a great looking Norton.

Ashley
 
ashman said:
If I was a rich man :roll: I would buy it and then ride it, not put it in a musem or a display case, riding it like it should be and thats the fun part about riding our old bikes and if its gets batted from riding it on the road then be it as you can always rebuild it when the time comes, classic bikes should be riden not put away for just a few eyes to druel over it, but I wouldn't race it on the track, its more a road going bike and being a bright yellow colour it will atrack a lot of intrests from nomal poeple and other bike riders for sure, but then thats my opinion and I am sure there will be other that would just keep it in their lounge room forever.

By the way its a great looking Norton.

Ashley
Click to expand...

+1
Ridden not hidden, as they say.

I watched a video on YouTube a while back from an Aussie TV documentary: 'This 1974 Ducati 750SS is too valuable to ride'...
Although one comment observes a guy just paid Au$ 185k for one and he rides it :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B6pCEm1pj_4
 
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