1962 650ss Build

The endplay should be reduced to something under 20thou. I set mine at ten thou.
Too much end play on the KS shaft can allow the gearset to pop out of gear.
 
Endplay should be considerably less than 1/2". I have some kickstart shaft endplay movement (more than .020), but for some reason it all still works. It's hard on the kick start pawl and pawl stop if left unchecked. I use an O-ring behind the kickstart lever to keep the kickstart shaft held out to about .010 of endplay (probably in the wrong direction). Mickey mouse engineering.

Sure hope you didn't get it all torqued up with something not seated where it belongs. Lot of torque on that mainshaft nut. If it goes into all gears you are probably still good on the stuff you really don't want to break.

I'm surprised the pawl is able to still work well with that much end play. I wonder if it is sliding in too far and missing the stop, which would take all the tension off the spring and it could come out of either the shaft or the inner cover hole. Of course that's all my guess work BS.

I'm not sure what the test don't guess protocol is on a gearbox without taking it apart and making sure all the parts are in there.
 
I'm surprised the pawl is able to still work well with that much end play. I wonder if it is sliding in too far and missing the stop, which would take all the tension off the spring and it could come out of either the shaft or the inner cover hole. Of course that's all my guess work BS.
I think this is exactly what was happening.

I'm honestly not sure exactly what was going on in there. But, decided it would be absolutely best to just strip the whole thing, and go over the whole order of operations. I'm not sure where things were getting hung up. I put a shim in of .020, and got it all back together and it feels much much smoother in operation.

Also took the opportunity to review 720 times the oldbrits GB assembly instructions. Mostly just to make sure that the teeth were engaging correctly with the selector, and all things had good contact. I think later this summer I may use this Haynes manual I have to light charcoal on my grill.

The one thing that I keep thinking about is was there a design change with the Detent plunger in the different year boxes. I replaced the plunger, spring, and cylinder, but it just seems so damn tight when its all in place. Backing off the plunger to finger tightness seems much better. I feel like I'm also learning that Original parts want to be with Original parts. I think where a lot of my problems are popping up is where NEW Andover parts, meet original parts.


Anyways . . . long story short, and 4.5 beers later, the box is all back together, and as a whole sounds and feels much much smoother than it did 10 hours ago. Hoping that tomorrow will be the first firing of bike.

1962 650ss Build
 
Yeah. This is the pre ‘63 gearbox.
I think there are springs on the market that are too short on the "extension" that goes in the hole in the box inner case. I had your problem on a '92 Atlas and finally solved it with a new spring. The early pre-Commando design without the peg on the gearbox inner seems inferior but it obviously worked for lots of bikes. IIRC I inserted the spring into the hole on the inner case first and then used a large screw driver to lever the other end into the kickstarter shaft.
 
So it’s all wound with good tension.

Checking with the dial gauge after a brief search it’s moving, yes I believe that to be true 0.57” in and out.

So I think when I’m coming down on the i
Kick it’s pushing the shaft out.

Something must not have been seated correctly when i had checked it before.
I'm hoping you meant .057", NOT .570"
-George
 
Now I feel like a dope. .057 is probably not that unusual. .57 is scary.

Where did the shim go? At the other end of the layshaft against the bearing? I could have done that with mine, but wasn't sure how well the gears would like it. Somehow I missed any mention of how to set end play in the documents I referenced.

I did end up using the Hanyes manual for the two exploded views of the gearbox. It also included a note about the kickstart pawl. The Hemmings PDF stuff was in my opinion really disorganized with regard to figure placement. It was a pain in the butt for me to use jumping back a fourth all the time, so I quit using it. I'm better with pictures anyway.

On the detent plunger: It won't be stiff to your foot when shifting. My entire gearbox felt like it barely worked on the bench shifting with my hand. Once the motor is running and everything is in the frame where it goes. Smooth as silk.
 
Thats what I'm really hoping.

I put the shim over the kickstart shaft before it gets put through the inner case. I found the Old Britts step by step to be the most helpful of all the manuals/videos.
 
Nope. No love.

Spring just unseated again. Beyond pissed now. Wish I still had the old spring I “replaced”
 
I had something along those lines with another make about 20 years ago now. The bike shifted reasonably well but would miss about 1 shift in 100, especially if rushed.
It was suggested that a new improved shifter control mechanism with special "ears" or tangs would fix this.
I bought the upgraded part and installed it (3 hrs!)
Then the bike wouldn't shift at all!
Put the old original 1947 part back in and decided not to rush the shifting.
Now it never misses. Well maybe one time in a thousand when I forget my manners and rush it.
The new part is still in the drawer, not sure why I keep it!

Glen
 
Nope. No love.

Spring just unseated again. Beyond pissed now. Wish I still had the old spring I “replaced”

That is not good news.

That spring looks really wound up to me. You aren't able to wind that spring all the way around the shaft when installing it are you? Probably impossible. It should do the job of returning the kick start just being brought back enough to get it in the last hole it needs to get in. No extra winding. Just a thought

When I tried installing my spring on the case first (actually on the post pre-Commando) the angle of the bend that went into the shaft was not correct and it barely went into the shaft before getting hung up due to the angle. Installing the spring in the shaft first was a big improvement for the shaft end of the spring.

Too bad that spring steel can't be easily bent. A little bit of decreasing radius on the bend that keeps popping out might fix it.

Here is some shade tree engineering thinking. If the kick stroke is shortened does the spring stay in place? You could move the kick start further back on the splines to reduce your typical kick stroke a little. that may be on the borderline of being ridiculous though.

I know the feeling of tossing something out I didn't think I'd need anymore. Not a pleasant one.
 
That is not good news.

That spring looks really wound up to me. You aren't able to wind that spring all the way around the shaft when installing it are you? Probably impossible. It should do the job of returning the kick start just being brought back enough to get it in the last hole it needs to get in. No extra winding. Just a thought

When I tried installing my spring on the case first (actually on the post pre-Commando) the angle of the bend that went into the shaft was not correct and it barely went into the shaft before getting hung up due to the angle. Installing the spring in the shaft first was a big improvement for the shaft end of the spring.

Too bad that spring steel can't be easily bent. A little bit of decreasing radius on the bend that keeps popping out might fix it.

Here is some shade tree engineering thinking. If the kick stroke is shortened does the spring stay in place? You could move the kick start further back on the splines to reduce your typical kick stroke a little. that may be on the borderline of being ridiculous though.

I know the feeling of tossing something out I didn't think I'd need anymore. Not a pleasant one.
Just try a different spring from a reliable supplier. I've been told by several people that there was a batch of bad springs and that was my experience as well. Short of that you could try "bushing" the hole in the aluminum of the inner case with something like a pop rivet thimble but, honestly, I just think it's a poor repro spring. It did work with the original spring?
 
That spring looks really wound up to me. You aren't able to wind that spring all the way around the shaft when installing it are you? Probably impossible. It should do the job of returning the kick start just being brought back enough to get it in the last hole it needs to get in. No extra winding. Just a thought

Here is some shade tree engineering thinking. If the kick stroke is shortened does the spring stay in place? You could move the kick start further back on the splines to reduce your typical kick stroke a little. that may be on the borderline of being ridiculous though.

I know the feeling of tossing something out I didn't think I'd need anymore. Not a pleasant one.
So a bit more on this. I turned back the kickstart lever about 30degrees. That has shortened its throw, and seems that the spring is staying retained. I have in the meantime ordered a replacement spring from Baxter's Cycle, and I'm hoping this would be the cure. I'm also using a later Commando Kick arm, not the straight up and down style that was on these early AMC boxes. So my logic that the commando arm has a bit more rotation to it, and Maybe that's why it's popping out.

As for the winding of the spring, I'm now thinking of something else. When I align this, before I set the spring into the case for tension, where should the hole in the shaft be? At present, the hole in the shaft is in the 12 o'clock position, or facing straight up. This means I am bending this spring back a good bit to fit the tang into the case hole.

Rewatching the Hemmings video now, I seems the spring hole on the shaft he's assembling is at about the 9 - 10 o'clock position. This would put a lot less tension on this spring, and maybe that what I need to try.

I'm just confused, because I feel like I'm doing this with the kick plunger spring fully depressed and loaded onto the pawl, just like he does in the video.

This will be one more thing to check in the morning. Good news is, I feel like I can now strip and reassemble a gearbox in about 25mins time. Just need to it work, then that'll be a good claim.
 
Is kickshaft on the early bike the same as in the video?
From what I recall my kicker was just like the video, shaft hole at about 8 or 9 o'clock when against the stop.
It doesn't get a huge preload, as you can see in the video when he uses the puller to hook the other end over the peg.
 
ah, forgot to mention. 1.5 kicks, and it sprung to life today. Kickstart spring broken and all. Really excited to get this going down the road. Heres a really bad video I took. Wasn't expecting it to come to life, had to scramble to get my phone onto video. Hence why the quality is ridiculous.


Video of First Running

Really good oil flowing back to the center tank. A few small drips here and there. Took apart the timing case, and checked chain tension, and properly torqued up the screws to the case. Also had an issue with the float chambers. So took out the "new" viton tipped plug, and threw that immediately in the trash. Replaced it with the original yellow as hell float plug. No more issue.

Scitsu Tach works well, and front light works too. No rear lights yet.
 
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Is kickshaft on the early bike the same as in the video?
From what I recall my kicker was just like the video, shaft hole at about 8 or 9 o'clock when against the stop.
It doesn't get a huge preload, as you can see in the video when he uses the puller to hook the other end over the peg.
No, the early kickers are more up and down. This was before I realized it doesn't work with these rear sets.
1962 650ss Build
 
Sorry, I should have said Kick start shaft.
Is the hole for the spring oriented the same way as the Commando KS shaft in the Hemmings video?
There is only a small amount of spring windup needed in the video.
 
Sorry, I should have said Kick start shaft.
Is the hole for the spring oriented the same way as the Commando KS shaft in the Hemmings video?
There is only a small amount of spring windup needed in the video.
I seem to remember it is not. From when I had my issues I seem to remember that switching to a Commando spring required a Commando inner gearbox cover and kickstarter shaft.
 
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