Öhlins suspension for P11
- Thread starter p400
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We have the DU 140 shocks in stock, they can be converted to fit the Norton.
Since you have done it already, and I do not have a P11 to measure, can you help out with some specs?
Length, are they the same 13 inch 330 mm as the commando shocks?
Stroke, again, the same as a commando? 83 mm?
Spring rate, you posted you are using the 360-06 with 20 mm preload for your weight, the same on these or different?
Are the stock P11 shocks the same as the stock Commando shocks?
If they are different, If someone would loan me a shock, I can test the stock spring rate, and dyno the shock.
The stock Commando spring rate is 22 Nmm
Clearance issues? The picture does not show a chain guard, do P11's not have a chain guard?
If they do have a chain guard do people remove it?
https://www.accessnorton.com/NortonCommando/norton-p11-spring-rates-forks-and-rear-shocks.25949/
Since you have done it already, and I do not have a P11 to measure, can you help out with some specs?
Length, are they the same 13 inch 330 mm as the commando shocks?
Stroke, again, the same as a commando? 83 mm?
Spring rate, you posted you are using the 360-06 with 20 mm preload for your weight, the same on these or different?
Are the stock P11 shocks the same as the stock Commando shocks?
If they are different, If someone would loan me a shock, I can test the stock spring rate, and dyno the shock.
The stock Commando spring rate is 22 Nmm
Clearance issues? The picture does not show a chain guard, do P11's not have a chain guard?
If they do have a chain guard do people remove it?
https://www.accessnorton.com/NortonCommando/norton-p11-spring-rates-forks-and-rear-shocks.25949/
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Schwany
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I just happen to have Koni shocks that sit at 13 inches eye to eye center unweighted on a stand. I figure just about any shock that is 13 inches would work on the street for me. I don't know if a longer shock might be better off road. Not going there. I have no clue how long the P11 shocks actually would have been from the factory. I got my P11 in milk crates in the early 70's. The shocks and forks were missing. I don't have any documentation that defines the shock length. However, there are people on this site that probably know the size of every nut on the original P11. I'm not one of them.
p400, I appreciate the invite to talk about P11 suspension, but I'm not all that smart. I can setup a suspension, if the spring rates are close and there are enough adjustments, but charts and graphs are not my strong suit. My interest in the Ohlins is for smoothing out street riding. My go fast days are long over. I had Ohlins at both ends on my 996S and it was nice. Even though the riding position was like a monkey humping a football. The way my bike is set up now it isn't very sharp irregularity in the road friendly. The Koni shock spring rate is too high at 230-0 with minimum preload and the right amount of rider sag. My Betor forks have really crappy fast sharp impact compression damping and no simple adjustment other than oil and spring rate. They might have too much oil of the wrong weight in them, a little bit of stiction, and too much progressive aftermarket spring. More attention required.
All the shocks listed in the Ohlins thread Dan started would fit on my P11 without obstruction. I did have some concern about the rear brake cover, and the top gusset on the rear axle mount, but neither present a clearance issue on my bike. The P11 Rangers had chain guards I believe. I know nothing about the dimensions of the chain guard, or if they would present a clearance issue.
The Koni 7610 1282 shocks I have are more than likely what people were putting on their Triumph and Commando street bikes in the San Jose CA area when and where I bought them. They have a 1998 stamp on the body. That surprised me, since I thought I'd parked it in the corner of the garage by then.
Dan,
I'd buy the Ohlins HD764 shocks from you today and bolt them on, but I think the front end would still be beating me up. Still thinking on how to approach it. It won't be much longer until I figure it out. Thanks for the input on the HD764 spring rate in the Ohlins build thread.
Told ya I weren't very smart. I can type though.
p400, I appreciate the invite to talk about P11 suspension, but I'm not all that smart. I can setup a suspension, if the spring rates are close and there are enough adjustments, but charts and graphs are not my strong suit. My interest in the Ohlins is for smoothing out street riding. My go fast days are long over. I had Ohlins at both ends on my 996S and it was nice. Even though the riding position was like a monkey humping a football. The way my bike is set up now it isn't very sharp irregularity in the road friendly. The Koni shock spring rate is too high at 230-0 with minimum preload and the right amount of rider sag. My Betor forks have really crappy fast sharp impact compression damping and no simple adjustment other than oil and spring rate. They might have too much oil of the wrong weight in them, a little bit of stiction, and too much progressive aftermarket spring. More attention required.
All the shocks listed in the Ohlins thread Dan started would fit on my P11 without obstruction. I did have some concern about the rear brake cover, and the top gusset on the rear axle mount, but neither present a clearance issue on my bike. The P11 Rangers had chain guards I believe. I know nothing about the dimensions of the chain guard, or if they would present a clearance issue.
The Koni 7610 1282 shocks I have are more than likely what people were putting on their Triumph and Commando street bikes in the San Jose CA area when and where I bought them. They have a 1998 stamp on the body. That surprised me, since I thought I'd parked it in the corner of the garage by then.
Dan,
I'd buy the Ohlins HD764 shocks from you today and bolt them on, but I think the front end would still be beating me up. Still thinking on how to approach it. It won't be much longer until I figure it out. Thanks for the input on the HD764 spring rate in the Ohlins build thread.
Told ya I weren't very smart. I can type though.
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Does the P11 use the same shock as the N15CS?
That is readable on P400's sheet and other copies of the same http://vintagebritishcables.com/documents/GirlingMotorcycleSuspension.pdf
It shows a 13.4 inch shock with a 90 lb spring with 3.1 inches of travel 78.74 mm This measurement appears Not to include the bump stop which appears to be about 12 mm Total travel 90 mm
That is readable on P400's sheet and other copies of the same http://vintagebritishcables.com/documents/GirlingMotorcycleSuspension.pdf
It shows a 13.4 inch shock with a 90 lb spring with 3.1 inches of travel 78.74 mm This measurement appears Not to include the bump stop which appears to be about 12 mm Total travel 90 mm
p400
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A single seat, high pipes, aluminum oil tank early P11 is 100% Matchless G85CS with a heavy 750 Norton engine.
Pretty sure it is Girling 12.9/9.4 with 110 spring.......or maybe not.
Forum responses are cheap, document copies are best.
ALL my P11 bike/items/lit went to Japan collection.
Surely these P11 forum inmates have documents and number stamped OEM Girling to share.
I think this picture shows the OEM Girling stamps off my long gone P11.
P11 inmates, please contact Tony Curzon, (UK P11 guru) for definitive P11 knowledge to allow Dan to pursue.
Pretty sure it is Girling 12.9/9.4 with 110 spring.......or maybe not.
Forum responses are cheap, document copies are best.
ALL my P11 bike/items/lit went to Japan collection.
Surely these P11 forum inmates have documents and number stamped OEM Girling to share.
I think this picture shows the OEM Girling stamps off my long gone P11.
P11 inmates, please contact Tony Curzon, (UK P11 guru) for definitive P11 knowledge to allow Dan to pursue.
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p400
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The Girling shocks on my P11 were as found and may not be correct items as my bike was purchased from a P11 flipper.
However the number looks to be 4590 as extracted from longer stamping and comparing to catalog.
Dangerous information.
The fuzzy page is not good, i dont see P11.
My P11 was set up with custom scratch built piggyback Öhlins 335/95mm worked fine for me .
I think it was sprung with 00480-12.
P11 do not have provisions for chain guard, later P11A, Rangers and such have brackets and chain guard.
I was going to fit a chain guard to my P11 with large "P" clamps, as sloppy chain lube for daily rider was slung everywhere.
I had desires to fit Öhlins forks and a front disc as the bike became a nice back roads ride, did not complete that desire.
The biggest comfort/suspension issues on a P11 are the seat and handlebars, put those OEM items aside for the collector that buys the bike.
P11's rule....
However the number looks to be 4590 as extracted from longer stamping and comparing to catalog.
Dangerous information.
The fuzzy page is not good, i dont see P11.
My P11 was set up with custom scratch built piggyback Öhlins 335/95mm worked fine for me .
I think it was sprung with 00480-12.
P11 do not have provisions for chain guard, later P11A, Rangers and such have brackets and chain guard.
I was going to fit a chain guard to my P11 with large "P" clamps, as sloppy chain lube for daily rider was slung everywhere.
I had desires to fit Öhlins forks and a front disc as the bike became a nice back roads ride, did not complete that desire.
The biggest comfort/suspension issues on a P11 are the seat and handlebars, put those OEM items aside for the collector that buys the bike.
P11's rule....
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These are on Feked as Hagon replacements for Matchless G15CS models from 1965 onwards
3 position spring pre-load, adjustment by enclosed stepped cam ring.
110lb (20kg) medium weight progressive springs are fitted as standard.
Supplied with spring adjuster spanner.
2 year guarantee.
Length: 13.4", 13+3/8" (340mm) between eyelet centres
Top bush ID: 3/8" (10mm)
Top bush width: 15/16" (24.5mm) for 1" mounting points
Bottom bush ID: 3/8" (10mm)
Bottom bush width: 15/16" (24.5mm) for 1" mounting points
OEM: Girling 64054590 (reference only), 34003CL3
However, of Feked the P11 lists as
12.9" Hagon Shocks - Norton P11/P11A + AJS Model 16, 18, 31, 33 From 1963 Onwards - Open Spring
3 position spring pre-load, adjustment by enclosed stepped cam ring.
Supplied with spring adjuster spanner.
110lb (20kg) heavyweight progressive springs are fitted as standard.
2 year guarantee.
Length: 12.9", 12+7/8" (330mm)
Top bush ID: 3/8" (10mm)
Top bush width : 15/16" (24.5mm) for 1" mounting points
Bottom bush ID: 3/8" (10mm)
Bottom bush width : 15/16" (24.5mm) for 1" mounting points
OEM: Girling 64054493, 33007SS
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For Information: IKON listed P11 shocks:
P/N: 7610-1630
Lenght: 340mm (That is a is a good match to the original 13,4")
stroke to bump stop: 71mm
spring rate: 100-185 lbs/inch (Girling original 90 lbs/inch)
Top and bottom bushes same as Gortnipper posted.
Some time ago I tried to find a good Öhlins match with my limited knowledge and information.
Is the HD 906 a good choice?
lenght: 336+10mm
stroke: 77mm
spring rate: 91-148 lbs/inch
Clearance to the chain guard on my P11A should be ok. It is not as tight as on a Commando.
P/N: 7610-1630
Lenght: 340mm (That is a is a good match to the original 13,4")
stroke to bump stop: 71mm
spring rate: 100-185 lbs/inch (Girling original 90 lbs/inch)
Top and bottom bushes same as Gortnipper posted.
Some time ago I tried to find a good Öhlins match with my limited knowledge and information.
Is the HD 906 a good choice?
lenght: 336+10mm
stroke: 77mm
spring rate: 91-148 lbs/inch
Clearance to the chain guard on my P11A should be ok. It is not as tight as on a Commando.
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Schwany
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Based on that Feked info, it looks like I got the right "close enough length" Koni shocks for street riding, but too much spring for my weight and riding style now. Koni (now Ikon) shocks do have rebound damping, and are probably a better affordable shock choice than the Hagon shocks. Ohlins are a step up in price and performance.
Other than the harsh reaction to sharp bumps, my resto-mod P11 is comfortable to ride. Like sitting back on a couch with a magic fingers vibrating feature.
Other than the harsh reaction to sharp bumps, my resto-mod P11 is comfortable to ride. Like sitting back on a couch with a magic fingers vibrating feature.
p400
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The Öhlins set I used for couple years was a 340mm length with about 100mm travel.
Spring set 00480-12, 230mm spring with 12mm preload, 90mm reservoir, rubber bush mount, 3 pos preload.
Worked well for me as dual sport application, gravel roads, double track, back roads, some hiway.
I carried full Wolfman tool set, MSR bottle of fuel, tire tools, tube, water, tank bag full of supplies.
My advice - you do not want clickers for comp/reb, you might want fancier preload, but 3 position was all I needed for more camping gear.
Spring set 00480-12, 230mm spring with 12mm preload, 90mm reservoir, rubber bush mount, 3 pos preload.
Worked well for me as dual sport application, gravel roads, double track, back roads, some hiway.
I carried full Wolfman tool set, MSR bottle of fuel, tire tools, tube, water, tank bag full of supplies.
My advice - you do not want clickers for comp/reb, you might want fancier preload, but 3 position was all I needed for more camping gear.
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Schwany
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I agree if money is a concern.
Most dialed in suspension setups for the street do only have a small range for the same rider. I've used Ohlins and other fully adjustable clickers in the past on a variety of motorcycles I've owned, and have fully adjustable coil over shocks on my '65 El Camino. If I were going to get any new shocks for the P11, they would be the fully adjustable Ohlins shocks. I'm comfortable with using them.
Looks like I won't be getting the Ohlins shocks though. I was eventually able to dial in the simple 3 position spring preload and 4 position dampening on the Koni shocks for my new old man riding style on the P11. If I couldn't have gotten the Koni shocks to work, I would have sprung for the Ohlins shocks. They work well and look impressive on a street ride. At 7 decades, I'm more show than go.
Most dialed in suspension setups for the street do only have a small range for the same rider. I've used Ohlins and other fully adjustable clickers in the past on a variety of motorcycles I've owned, and have fully adjustable coil over shocks on my '65 El Camino. If I were going to get any new shocks for the P11, they would be the fully adjustable Ohlins shocks. I'm comfortable with using them.
Looks like I won't be getting the Ohlins shocks though. I was eventually able to dial in the simple 3 position spring preload and 4 position dampening on the Koni shocks for my new old man riding style on the P11. If I couldn't have gotten the Koni shocks to work, I would have sprung for the Ohlins shocks. They work well and look impressive on a street ride. At 7 decades, I'm more show than go.
mdt-son
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There is some conflicting information in the entries above.
All Matchless roadsters (G3/G80/G12/G15Mk2, G15CSR, 1964-68) used 12.9"/10.2" shocks, AMC p/n 029612.
G3/G80/G12STD had this specification for 1963 as well. Spring rate is 110 Lb/in and spring length is 8.4" (Girling spring 9054/70). Preload would be 45 Lb.
Compressed length bottoms at 0.4" rubber buffer, so maximum stroke is 3.1" or 79mm.
Basically the same damper was used on the Commando, but spring rate was increased to 126 Lb/in and the bottom ferrule was lengthened. Mounting bolts were also of larger diameter.
Matchless street scramblers (G15CS, P11, P11A, 1964-69) used 13.4"/10.2" shocks, AMC p/n 030248. Spring rate is 90 Lb/in and spring length 9.4" (Girling spring 9054/94).
Preload would be 27 Lb.
Compressed length bottoms at 0.4" rubber buffer. Maximum stroke is 91mm.
Alternative spring (Girling spring 9054/88): Spring rate is 110 Lb/in and spring length 9.4". Preload is 28 Lb.
Both shocks used 64533645 ferrules which had bonded bushes of length .942" (24mm) and were adapted to suit .375" (3/8") bolts.
- Knut
All Matchless roadsters (G3/G80/G12/G15Mk2, G15CSR, 1964-68) used 12.9"/10.2" shocks, AMC p/n 029612.
G3/G80/G12STD had this specification for 1963 as well. Spring rate is 110 Lb/in and spring length is 8.4" (Girling spring 9054/70). Preload would be 45 Lb.
Compressed length bottoms at 0.4" rubber buffer, so maximum stroke is 3.1" or 79mm.
Basically the same damper was used on the Commando, but spring rate was increased to 126 Lb/in and the bottom ferrule was lengthened. Mounting bolts were also of larger diameter.
Matchless street scramblers (G15CS, P11, P11A, 1964-69) used 13.4"/10.2" shocks, AMC p/n 030248. Spring rate is 90 Lb/in and spring length 9.4" (Girling spring 9054/94).
Preload would be 27 Lb.
Compressed length bottoms at 0.4" rubber buffer. Maximum stroke is 91mm.
Alternative spring (Girling spring 9054/88): Spring rate is 110 Lb/in and spring length 9.4". Preload is 28 Lb.
Both shocks used 64533645 ferrules which had bonded bushes of length .942" (24mm) and were adapted to suit .375" (3/8") bolts.
- Knut
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Re: conflicting information Knut-- I noted on the Girling catalog link posted above that under the AJS heading, the 33CSR was purportedly spec'd with the 13.4", 90# set while under the Matchless heading, the G15CSR shows the correct 12.9", 110# set. The issue being that these were the same bike. Just above the 33CSR line but separate from it they listed the 33 model as having the (correct for CSR) 12.9" shock--was this an error in compiling their catalog?
mdt-son
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Interesting discovery. I will dig a little.
All right, here goes. There are some printing errors in the lists issued by Girling . The 1965 supplemental factory list by AMC confirms G15CSR and 33CSR used the same rear suspension units, #031578. next question is, what was the length of these units? Girling lists them as 12.9"/110 lbs (the entry is in the Matchless section only, 1953-65 list, confirmed in the 1968 list, the 1972 list states no version but confirms length to be 12.9" as well). The complete suspension unit part number is 64054763 and spring part number is 64543114. For the years 1965-1968 this spring was the only one supplied in chromed finish.
Please note that the above applies to both versions of the G15CSR/33CSR, the 1965-67 model and the 1968 model (there was no 33CSR for 1968).
Model G15CS was sensibly spec'ed with longer stroke dampers (they could have been even longer), hence the lower spring rate of 90 lbs/in.
I hope this helps.
- Knut
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mdt-son
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A question to those who ordered Ikon 7610-1630 for use on a G15CS.
Rubber block 7052250030 appears to be suitable, steel sleeve 7052113890 is unsuitable however. Steel sleeve 7052110260 has the correct ID, but the length is much too short -- it needs to be 24mm to match the corresponding Girling part. Ths is important for the top eye at least.
How did you get by - will Ikon supply a longer sleeve (if they did, please state part no.), or did you turn your own sleeves? I am reluctant to using sleeve extenders. I noticed Ikon specifies a sleeve extender at the lower mounting eye for the Norton slimline models (different schock though).
Icon suggested the use of 7610-1529 along with trirate springs 235-18/25/33. This version offers a longer stroke than 7610-1630. Rubber blocks and bushes as above.
- Knut
Rubber block 7052250030 appears to be suitable, steel sleeve 7052113890 is unsuitable however. Steel sleeve 7052110260 has the correct ID, but the length is much too short -- it needs to be 24mm to match the corresponding Girling part. Ths is important for the top eye at least.
How did you get by - will Ikon supply a longer sleeve (if they did, please state part no.), or did you turn your own sleeves? I am reluctant to using sleeve extenders. I noticed Ikon specifies a sleeve extender at the lower mounting eye for the Norton slimline models (different schock though).
Icon suggested the use of 7610-1529 along with trirate springs 235-18/25/33. This version offers a longer stroke than 7610-1630. Rubber blocks and bushes as above.
- Knut
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