Rear drum problem

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gortnipper

gortnipper

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I posted this on my Muttster rebuild thread, but have not seen a response, so am asking here too.

I pulled the bearings from my wheel hubs Saturday, and also the one from the rear drum.

I had tried to pull that one a while ago but the kids were asleep and I couldnt pound on it too much so I set it aside. So, I heated it up and gave the stub some good thwacks with my 2# dead blow mallet. Nothing, again.

I heated it some more and tried using my bearing puller. Still nothing, But I also noticed it was moving back and forth ~1mm with each slide of the hammer weight. So, I looked a bit closer and I noticed that the retaining groove where the circlip goes was fouling the bearing and keeping it in. I could move the bearing back and forth by hand, but it wouldn't come out.

The whole reason I was going to pull it was to replace the original bearings, and install a madass single piece axle. So, I wanted it out.

I also noticed a fracture in the retaining lip, in the red box.

So, I used my dremel on the lip until i had removed enough for the bearing to come out.

Rear drum problem

Rear drum problem


Is this thing toast? or can i massage that break and will it be ok?

I have no idea how that lip could have become larger than when the original bearings were installed. I have never been in there.

Any ideas?

Thanks,
gortnipper
 
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I would think you could Dremel blend away that fracture and no harm will come of it.

Slick
 
What could have caused the retaining lip for that circlip to expand so as to prevent the bearing removal?
 
gortnipper said:
What could have caused the retaining lip for that circlip to expand so as to prevent the bearing removal?
Click to expand...



If the area inside the red box corresponds to where there appears to be a semi-circular crack or indentation at the 9 o'clock position in the first photo then I'd hazard a guess somebody may have caught the lip with a flat nosed punch and spread it?
Maybe the circlip wouldn't quite fit in the groove during the original assembly and as 'time is money' they resorted to a hammer and punch to finish the job but managed to hit the lip in the process?
 
Yes, that is the same crack.

I also noticed that there is quite a bit of groove wear on the face of the circlip. I dont know if the bearing was a bit loose and kept hammering the circlip which deformed the lip as well? But as this is cast iron, I wouldn't have thought that?
 
Hi David. You have mentioned the bearing moved easily back and forward till it hit the retainer groove. That indicates the bearing has been flogging back and forward, possibly pounding the retainer circlip against the side of the groove, causing it to be hammered inwards at the edge. This is what has stopped the bearing coming out.
Is it toast. Well you could locktite the new bearing in place. You would also be recommended to fit shims between the retainer circlip and the bearing to prevent this happening again.
Dereck

It could be a very expensive piece of toast but I don't think so. your call.
 
kerinorton said:
Hi David. You have mentioned the bearing moved easily back and forward till it hit the retainer groove. That indicates the bearing has been flogging back and forward, possibly pounding the retainer circlip against the side of the groove, causing it to be hammered inwards at the edge. This is what has stopped the bearing coming out.
Is it toast. Well you could locktite the new bearing in place. You would also be recommended to fit shims between the retainer circlip and the bearing to prevent this happening again.
Dereck

It could be a very expensive piece of toast but I don't think so. your call.
Click to expand...

Hi Dereck - I will take a look and see how the new bearing fits in when both are room temp. If it slides in easily, well that would be pretty clear. If so, do you think shims+red locktite would be sufficient?
 
gortnipper said:
Hi Dereck - I will take a look and see how the new bearing fits in when both are room temp. If it slides in easily, well that would be pretty clear. If so, do you think shims+red locktite would be sufficient?
Click to expand...

Kerinorton make a good point about the bearing flogging about.

My thought on shims: Doubtful you could get anything of substantial thickness between the bearing race and circlip, unless you deepen the bearing bore.

Regarding Red Loctite: It might work for a one time fix, but if you ever need to pull the bearing again, it will be a difficult task. Red Loctite can be broken down with heat. How high a temp, I do not know off the top of my head, but you should do the research before using it.

Slick
 
texasSlick said:
gortnipper said:
Hi Dereck - I will take a look and see how the new bearing fits in when both are room temp. If it slides in easily, well that would be pretty clear. If so, do you think shims+red locktite would be sufficient?
Click to expand...

Kerinorton make a good point about the bearing flogging about.

My thought on shims: Doubtful you could get anything of substantial thickness between the bearing race and circlip, unless you deepen the bearing bore.

Regarding Red Loctite: It might work for a one time fix, but if you ever need to pull the bearing again, it will be a difficult task. Red Loctite can be broken down with heat. How high a temp, I do not know off the top of my head, but you should do the research before using it.

Slick
Click to expand...

500F/260C - Would Loctite blue be viable?

Note that I noticed the bearing moving back and forth ~1mm after I had removed the circlip, and it was hitting the outboard lip of the circlip groove. I am not sure if it was flogging very much before I had removed the circlip, though it would be easy enough to check by dropping the old bearing back in and reinstalling the clip.

I was wondering if a felt retaining washer might work as a shim if needed?
 
gortnipper said:
500F/260C - Would Loctite blue be viable?

Note that I noticed the bearing moving back and forth ~1mm after I had removed the circlip, and it was hitting the outboard lip of the circlip groove. I am not sure if it was flogging very much before I had removed the circlip, though it would be easy enough to check by dropping the old bearing back in and reinstalling the clip.

I was wondering if a felt retaining washer might work as a shim if needed?
Click to expand...

500 F / 260 C seems to be too high a risk for collateral damage. OTH, if red Loctite saves the hub from being toast now, and it becomes toast on the next bearing replacement, you are ahead.

I would not expect blue Loctite to hold the bearing if it was loose in the bore, at least I would be apprehensive over it.

Why not get a new bearing and tap it in with just a little heat? If it seems snug, then you should be allright. Let us hope the bearing was moving back and forth 1 mm while the hub was warm, and in response to your 2# hammer.

A felt washer will not hold the bearing if it is loose. However, you might could ("might could" is a Texas verb form which means with due diligence, forethought, sufficient cleverness, ingenuity, and money) machine a retainer flange into the hub and secure the flange with some small flat head screws. I made a similar mod to my Atlas hub to avoid peening down the felt washer retainer. I am not familiar with your hub, but my guess is there would be sufficient "meat" for such a mod.

Good luck with it and keep us informed how it turns out.

Slick
 
texasSlick said:
gortnipper said:
500F/260C - Would Loctite blue be viable?

Note that I noticed the bearing moving back and forth ~1mm after I had removed the circlip, and it was hitting the outboard lip of the circlip groove. I am not sure if it was flogging very much before I had removed the circlip, though it would be easy enough to check by dropping the old bearing back in and reinstalling the clip.

I was wondering if a felt retaining washer might work as a shim if needed?
Click to expand...

500 F / 260 C seems to be too high a risk for collateral damage. OTH, if red Loctite saves the hub from being toast now, and it becomes toast on the next bearing replacement, you are ahead.

I would not expect blue Loctite to hold the bearing if it was loose in the bore, at least I would be apprehensive over it.

Why not get a new bearing and tap it in with just a little heat? If it seems snug, then you should be allright. Let us hope the bearing was moving back and forth 1 mm while the hub was warm, and in response to your 2# hammer.

A felt washer will not hold the bearing if it is loose. However, you might could ("might could" is a Texas verb form which means with due diligence, forethought, sufficient cleverness, ingenuity, and money) machine a retainer flange into the hub and secure the flange with some small flat head screws. I made a similar mod to my Atlas hub to avoid peening down the felt washer retainer. I am not familiar with your hub, but my guess is there would be sufficient "meat" for such a mod.

Good luck with it and keep us informed how it turns out.

Slick
Click to expand...

Not the felt washer, but the felt retaining washer 06-2071 - I know, I was confused by that nomenclature as well.

I will do some more investigating at home tonight.

Rear drum problem
 
Just a side note, go back with sealed bearings and eliminate the felt, washer fiasco.
 
Let's talk shims again.

I think we have had our minds set on placing a shim between the bearing and the circlip. A better solution would be to place a shim in the bottom of the bearing bore, then the bearing, then circlip. The thickness of the shim would be whatever it takes to raise the bearing snugly against the circlip. The shim could be paper thin if necessary, because the shim can be made to bear against the entire outer race of the bearing, rather than the narrow area of the circlip.

Slick
 
Hi David. It doesn't really mater which side of the bearing you shim, so long as you do. Not sure which loctite to use, but you will neeed to use one of them to make that bearing stay where it is supposed to. The shim is important, and best if you find 1 shim only to do the job rather than a selection of several thin ones. If you have to tap the circlip back into its groove, that wold be ideal rather than let it slip in easily. Take your time and don't be too concerned about using red loctite, as you wont have to touch it again for a long time.
Dereck

ps 'bout time you got that bloody thing on the road and present yourself at a rally or something. Are you going to Dunedin. If you are I will see you there.
 
I did a couple experiments last night and this am.

First, i tried to put in the new bearing with both it and the drum room temp. No deal, it got hung up right away. But, it dropped right in when the drum was heated up.

When I put in the circlip, even the old worn one, there was no float in the bearing - it stayed snugly seated when the drum was warm.

I left the drum to cool overnight, and this morning it did not fall out, but I could push it out with firm pressure from two thumbs from behind.

So, shims wont be necessary and I have a new circlip, so I think i will flatten that spur on the top of the lip and call it good. I will probably loctite it in to be sure its not rotating about when the drum is hot.

Dereck - I dont know if I will have the bike together for Dunedin. When is it again? If you guys make it down to AKL anywhen, do let me know and I may come out on my Duc or you guys are certainly welcome for a beer or some cold brown tea.
 
David, if you can move it from behind with your finger then it is Tooooooooooooooooooo loose. Loctite it. What size feeler gauge can you get between the circlip and the bearing? seriously. I suspect you will need some form of shim in order for you to have to tap the circlip into place. Work it out while the bearing is still in the Drum. If it is a thin shim, then put it in first before you fit the bearing. I was going to suggest you fit the dummy axle in first but you are using a one piece axle now.

Dereck

Not sure when the next local run is , but we have had 2 runs up here since the last Rally.

Next years rally is on the weekend including 21st Jan 2017. Newsletter came out this month. You will be welcome to come down on a duck. NTST8 did it for years.
 
kerinorton said:
David, if you can move it from behind with your finger then it is Tooooooooooooooooooo loose. Loctite it. What size feeler gauge can you get between the circlip and the bearing? seriously. I suspect you will need some form of shim in order for you to have to tap the circlip into place. Work it out while the bearing is still in the Drum. If it is a thin shim, then put it in first before you fit the bearing. I was going to suggest you fit the dummy axle in first but you are using a one piece axle now.

Dereck

Not sure when the next local run is , but we have had 2 runs up here since the last Rally.

Next years rally is on the weekend including 21st Jan 2017. Newsletter came out this month. You will be welcome to come down on a duck. NTST8 did it for years.
Click to expand...

Yeah, saw the newsletter just couldnt recall the date. May be able to swing that, will have to butter up the Mrs. :p

I could not move the bearing with the circlip in place - there was no discernible float when I tried to move it with my fingers when the drum was warm. I will try to force some feelers in to see.

I could only force it out with dual thumbs after it had cooled and I had removed the circlip.
 
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