Question about Brexit

[NPeteN]

or maybe I have life experiences and contrary to popular belief. kids aren't born all knowing

Just as every stranger you disagree with on the internet is not a snowflake.

Your whole train of thought is misinformed... Blurting out " blacks sold other blacks" has nothing to do with anything...

Robert E. Lee and Stonewall Jackson actively participated in and endorsed the rape, murder and slavery of Africans in North America. There was a civil war, look it up.

The descendants of these slaves are uncomfortable living around monuments made to glorify these men and their actions. Make sense?

 

[xbacksideslider]

The Civil War is a complex topic which goes beyond the sophomoric propaganda taught by our government schools.

It's an onion, with many layers.

The EU is to the UK as the North was to the South.
Follow the money.

 

[xbacksideslider]

Question for the Remainers and Leavers -

Did the Brexit referendum's language actually say something like

" . . . and the government shall negotiate terms of exit . . . "
​

or, did it say

" . . . on such date, the UK shall withdraw . . . "

? ? ? ? ? ?

​

I ask because it appears that any language requiring a negotiated exit was a poison pill from the beginning.


Or, if it said "shall withdraw" did the Tories just leap to a conclusion and say "Right, now we have to negotiate! and ask the EU just how we are going to leave?"

 

[MikeG]

Years ago I was at a union meeting outside of the gate of an aircraft factory. The people who made the most noise were those who never did anything within the factory.


Exactly what happened at Boeing Vertol. They were probably the last major aircraft manufacturer that did everything in house except for engines and avionics, raw aluminum in the back door and finished helicopters out the front. The UAW changed all that, and as more operations got subbed out to contractors due to lower productivity in house, the less the rank and file did in retaliation. A tightening death spiral that has resulted in the Philly plant becoming not much more than a final assembly point for components made globally.

 

[acotrel]

I have only one thing to say about Brexit - don't just sit back and let it all happen. Have a talk to your union about the pros and cons. If it is wrong, it won't be the first time that workers have been dudded.

 

[Fast Eddie]

Robert E. Lee and Stonewall Jackson actively participated in the rape, murder ...

That’s a strong accusation (putting it mildly).

If you can point to any evidence of that I’d like to see it as I’ve read quite a bit on this subject and have never come across any that would substantiate that.

All I have read on the subject makes it clear that both Lee and Jackson were basically anti slavery. Not in the way to take up arms against it, but in the way they thought, and said, it was wrong and believed it should / must change.

Neither of them fought to defend slavery. Both of them fought, reluctantly, to defend their own states from aggression. And did so only after their own states were threatened with armed conflict. It’s worth noting that in those days, the Union of the US was less strong and many were beholden to earlier belief structures that put state before country. Lee and Jackson were two such men.

Vilifying them is akin to vilifying all German officers from WW11 as hard core Nazi war criminals.

They weren’t.

Even in the U.K. the likes of Rommel were (reluctantly) respected.

 

[acotrel]

I was interested in Jeremy Corbin's claims about what the conservatives want to achieve with a no-deal Bexit. In Australia the conservatives have achieved most of that, with no fuss whatsoever. Except for one thing - most people have moved away from having private health insurance and are opting for Medicare and the public health system.

 

[trident sam]

Question for the Remainers and Leavers -

Did the Brexit referendum's language actually say something like

" . . . and the government shall negotiate terms of exit . . . "
​

or, did it say

" . . . on such date, the UK shall withdraw . . . "

? ? ? ? ? ?

​

I ask because it appears that any language requiring a negotiated exit was a poison pill from the beginning.


Or, if it said "shall withdraw" did the Tories just leap to a conclusion and say "Right, now we have to negotiate! and ask the EU just how we are going to leave?"

The choice on the ballot form was :-

Should the UK stay in the EU and
Should the UK leave the EU

That was it, and it was all going to happen until a foreign business woman called Gina Miller got involved and threw the spanner in about Parliament having to agree. ( The cretins in said Parliament wouldn't have come up with this train of thought as most of them would be over promo
ted as boot polishers

 

[freddie1105]

Just as every stranger you disagree with on the internet is not a snowflake.

Your whole train of thought is misinformed... Blurting out " blacks sold other blacks" has nothing to do with anything...

Robert E. Lee and Stonewall Jackson actively participated in and endorsed the rape, murder and slavery of Africans in North America. There was a civil war, look it up.

The descendants of these slaves are uncomfortable living around monuments made to glorify these men and their actions. Make sense?

descendants uncomfortable? did I mention snowflake. can't remember. there is no excuse for slavery.. ever! come over here and see the east European teens working the streets.

 

[freddie1105]

i'll leave it at that. we'll never agree as we are polar opposites and I don't want to fall out with you.

 

[Danno]

That’s a strong accusation (putting it mildly).

If you can point to any evidence of that I’d like to see it as I’ve read quite a bit on this subject and have never come across any that would substantiate that.

All I have read on the subject makes it clear that both Lee and Jackson were basically anti slavery. Not in the way to take up arms against it, but in the way they thought, and said, it was wrong and believed it should / must change.

Neither of them fought to defend slavery. Both of them fought, reluctantly, to defend their own states from aggression. And did so only after their own states were threatened with armed conflict. It’s worth noting that in those days, the Union of the US was less strong and many were beholden to earlier belief structures that put state before country. Lee and Jackson were two such men.

Vilifying them is akin to vilifying all German officers from WW11 as hard core Nazi war criminals.

They weren’t.

Even in the U.K. the likes of Rommel were (reluctantly) respected.

I've heard so many times the Civil War wasn't about slavery I could puke.

The economy in the Confederacy hinged on cheap labor (slavery) and the Union sought to end slavery, thus gutting the slave-based economy. Of course it was about money. If you fought for the Confederacy, you were fighting to maintain slavery (States Rights was a subterfuge). If you fought for the Union, you were fighting to end it. The Union won the war and slavery ended. The economy in the former Confederacy took years to recover and still depends a great deal upon cheap(er) labor. The idea that Lee and Jackson were anti-slavery is based upon propaganda used to get the population behind the war and fight with a "clear conscience" thinking they weren't fighting for slavery but for their individual States. They were likely like a lot of educated Southerners; they turned up their noses at the stench of slavery but the money it made them and their friends didn't bother them at all.

You can gloss over Rommel and his like, but he fought to make the world a Nazi-dominated place. Fortunately, Rommel lost, because Hitler miscalculated the amount of fuel needed to prosecute the war. Tanks stalled before they got to Russia for lack of fuel. Meanwhile, the trains kept a-runnin to Auschwitz and Buchenwald. Slavery and Nazism are not gone, but they do not dominate as they would have if both wars would have ended differently.

 

[NPeteN]

descendants uncomfortable? did I mention snowflake. can't remember. there is no excuse for slavery.. ever! come over here and see the east European teens working the streets.

I'd like to see you tell a black man in South Carolina he is a snowflake for wanting a Robert E. Lee statue removed from his town center.

Lee and Jackson took arms against their fellow countrymen to maintain SLAVERY.

Doesn't matter if they directly participated in rape and murder. They sure as hell endorsed it by killing their countrymen to preserve it.

 

[freddie1105]

Question for the Remainers and Leavers -

Did the Brexit referendum's language actually say something like

" . . . and the government shall negotiate terms of exit . . . "
​

or, did it say

" . . . on such date, the UK shall withdraw . . . "

? ? ? ? ? ?

​

I ask because it appears that any language requiring a negotiated exit was a poison pill from the beginning.


Or, if it said "shall withdraw" did the Tories just leap to a conclusion and say "Right, now we have to negotiate! and ask the EU just how we are going to leave?"

it asked " stay or leave"

 

[NPeteN]

The "war of northern aggression" narrative is a bit tired.

Let these men be remembered in history books, not on the street corner.

 

[freddie1105]

I'd like to see you tell a black man in South Carolina he is a snowflake for wanting a Robert E. Lee statue removed from his town center.

Lee and Jackson took arms against their fellow countrymen to maintain SLAVERY.

Doesn't matter if they directly participated in rape and murder. They sure as hell endorsed it by killing their countrymen to preserve it.

and i'd like to see your face when the compensation claims come in. you that gullible? has no bearing on their day to day life at all. where there's blame. there's a claim. as I posted earlier. it should never be allowed(slavery). despicable. but remove the evidence. remove history.....you watch the vultures circle for the next 30 yrs and watch the claims come in.

 

[trident sam]

Maybe we should dismantle Nelson's column as I'm sure the French are offended by it

 

[NPeteN]

and i'd like to see your face when the compensation claims come in. you that gullible? has no bearing on their day to day life at all. where there's blame. there's a claim. as I posted earlier. it should never be allowed(slavery). despicable. but remove the evidence. remove history.....you watch the vultures circle for the next 30 yrs and watch the claims come in.

Ok, well. Again, I'm not sure what that has to do with anything. I don't remember mentioning reparations.

Please, tell me more about what life is like for the average African American. You, a white guy from England seem to have solved all our problems!

 

[freddie1105]

I was on about the African American claims coming your way. and get over the English problem pal.

 

[NPeteN]

No English problem here. I quite like the English. This is afterall a Brexit thread on an English motorcycle forum so let's put the Civil War talk away.

Nice talking to you Freddie, agree to disagree and no hard feelings!

 

[freddie1105]

No English problem here. I quite like the English. This is afterall a Brexit thread on an English motorcycle forum so let's put the Civil War talk away.

Nice talking to you Freddie, agree to disagree and no hard feelings!

none taken fella. be a boring pub if everyone supported the same team. take care and ride safe