Biting the bullet on charging system

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My modern bonne runs a oem shunting rr like nearly all modern bikes and cars. Millions of troublefree miles clocked on such systems. Putting technically better system on a 45 year old machine just seems wasteful to me. We've heard what MAY happen to our older stator and rotors with shunting rr's but do we have actual cases of failures due to these?
 
Not sure
I expect that at source the cheap kind is 6 pennies and the expensive is 8 pennies .

I do know that in the early days Paul Hamon tried out a variety of Chinese solid state rec/regs with his Altons.
He had many warranty issues and eventually bit the bullet by going with Podtronics units, which he supplies now.
They all look about the same externally and may come from the same place, but apparently Bob Kizer , electronics Engineer and original owner of Podtronics, knew
something about the quality and arrangement of the components potted inside that small metal box.

Glen

Paul Hamon sold me an alternator kit with a Boyer reg, which failed pretty promptly.

Now running a £6 “Honda CBR600” box with the Alton.
 
If this was while ago, it fits with his reasoning for going to the Podtronics in recent years.

Glen
 
My buddy has a 73 850 he bought new, used it as only transport for 15 years. It has
128000 miles on it with just one top end rebuild at 55,000. I think he said that he has worn out a few sets of clutch plates, lots of tires but not much else.
It is apart for a major rebuild now.
It will get rewired but will still be running the original rm21 and zener setup since all of that still works fine.

Glen
 
One around town here has more than 200K supposedly , only ever saw it before odo turned over ... pretty sure it has been overhauled , owner/rider used to work at our local Norton Dealer a long time ago .... they really are great bikes ..... I just went through the mining out of epoxy on stator to find good wires for connection to my new leads, heat resistant wire ( 150C) , still a 10A stator feeding 120W Pod. R/R , seems like the fix worked and expect a few more years out of the stator .... fairly cheap fix $10 epoxy, $10 wire and $49 for Podtronic R/R .... would also like to mention all the help offered by Grant T. , he gave me great info re:testing the R/R and suggesting the fix ....a big thanks goes to Grant !
 
Eskasteve: If it's still on your shelf, do you have the connectors and do you want a buyer? The only new units I'm seeing are SH847 -- as was said, basically a slightly upgraded SH775, but also quite a bit larger. I'd rather have the SH775 if its a real one (PM me about price)

Ted
I gave it and all my spares to the bikes buyer. I'm slowly downsizing so the buyer got all or nothing.
 
I'm a little past sorry for starting this thread in the first place, but.... I did learn a lot about this weird (to me) shunt regulation, and available options. To re-iterate my original purposes, I want to upgrade my electrical system so that it is rock solid from low rpm to high continuous rpm, lights on or off, LED or not. That's quite a change from my current degraded state. But even the original design that everybody treats as normal requires a specific riding style, where you directly or inadvertently manage battery charge in some manner. The original design (with point ignition and kickstart), was less demanding with respect to power supply. But I like my electronic ignition.

Currently, I can't both run my incandescent lights and keep the sparkler operating when I'm in town. As I said, I'm tired of pushing the bike down the road after sitting too long at multiple stoplights, or sitting there holding 3000 rpm to keep it running when the battery is already flat. When I fix that, I want it better than original. To cover my slow operations, I need a bigger alternator or less load, or both. Either way, that means dumping more load when on the highway. When operational balance produces an excess, I (personally) want the series regulator or the original zener.

Consider this typical scenario: Cruising down the road, battery just recharged, just getting to where the alternator can get ahead of the game:

1) Original zener: essentially keeps alternator at full load. Not so bad for the alternator, at least its within original design.

2) Shunt regulator: In the same scenario--Regulator suddenly drops a FULL SHORT on the alternator in the latter part of every cycle to take power away from the DC side that it doesn't need. Thus, the net alternator current is higher than full load. If the alternator is oversized to the load, it's doing this all the more and actually working harder than a smaller alternator would be, since it is operating more time with a dead short.

3) Series regulator: switches off the alternator for some of the cycles and lets it loaf along at part load. Doesn't matter how oversized the alternator is, it just produces what's needed.

Sure, any of these can be made to work. When I was working as an engineer, we got into similar arguments all the time -- how good (i.e. expensive) do you want to make it? Lots of great (but overly expensive), or poor (but cheap) designs have put companies in the dustbin. Once you get into modifications, I think the business manager would go for the shunt type, the engineer for the series regulator.

So, getting back on track, after some troubleshooting, I'm going to LEDs with my 140 watt alternator, still with stock Zener, as a first step. If that doesn't satisfy me, then it's on to the 3-phase stator (for low rpm operation) and the series regulator (SH775 or SH847) to control the excess at high rpm. That's a combination that is sure to work as well as it can with readily available parts, with no adverse side effects regardless of load.
 
How can one tell the difference between a RM 21 and a RM 23. The 21 I have is black. The one I suspect to be a 23 is brownish/Gold color. Other than that, I cant see a difference.
 
Lucas ones will have a part number stamped on the metal core of the stator, once you have the number google it for what type it is.
 
No numbers anywhere.
As far as color, My wife says it’s more of an Olive Green. Brownish/Gold, Olive Green. It’s all the same to me........
 
So, getting back on track, after some troubleshooting, I'm going to LEDs with my 140 watt alternator, still with stock Zener, as a first step. If that doesn't satisfy me, then it's on to the 3-phase stator (for low rpm operation) and the series regulator (SH775 or SH847) to control the excess at high rpm. That's a combination that is sure to work as well as it can with readily available parts, with no adverse side effects regardless of load.

You'll be fine. Be sure to have a good battery.

A couple of things to add to this thread -

The stock system, or any system with a rotor/stator alternator does not output enough voltage to charge a battery with headlight on at idle. Under these conditions the battery is called upon to supply the system. LED headlight and tail light bulbs go a long way toward reducing the load on the battery. But a healthy battery is necessary regardless of what regulator you're using.

The "shorting" type RR may actually be preferred if you do mostly low speed riding, since it allows the full alternator voltage when below it's regulation point. Series regulators will always have some voltage drop across them. If you do a lot of highway riding with no lights or have LED's the series RR will keep the stator running cooler.
 
So, who understands/agrees/disagrees with this lot?

http://www.zefox.net/~bob/mc/vfr/alternator.html

How permanent-magnet charging systems really work.


There seem to be quite a few misconceptions about how vfr charging systems operate. Everybody understands that they "throw away" excess power, but not many seem to realize how little power is thrown away, at least when things work right.

Permanent magnet AC generators have some rather counterintuitive properties: The most important is that the generator tends, at normal operating speed, to be a source of constant current, not a source of voltage. Constant voltage sources, (wall plugs and batteries) are more familiar, so the VFR charging system is a bit alien. When you short out the stator of a VFR it's doing less work than it would be otherwise.

Hydraulic analogies are helpful in describing electrical circuits, but in this case they fall short. There's no combination of pumps, valves and pipes that acts exactly like a permanent magnet alternator. Certainly not with corresponding parts.

Still, there are enlightening similarities. For example, voltage regulation on a permanent magnet alternator is a bit like the unloader in a constant speed air compressor. The compressor is driven steadily, far in excess of the air system's needs. An extra valve in the cylinder head can "unload" (relieve) pressure in the cylinder when pressure in a storage tank gets high enough to satisfy demand. In this analogy the compressor's intake and exhaust valves are like the rectifier diodes, the unloader valve is similar to the regulator and the storage tank plays the same role as the battery.

If the unloader really vents all the excess air, with no pressure buildup, the compressor does no work when it's not needed. The usual setup is to let the accumulator cycle between low and high pressures; unloader opens when pressure hits maximum, unloader closes when pressure in the accumulator hits minimum.

There are lots of things wrong with this analogy: First, flow from a compressor does depend on speed, the current from the VFR's stator does not depend on speed once a little past idle. Second, air is compressible and electrons, at least for purposes of the present topic, are _not_ compressible. They're more like hydraulic fluid. This makes the battery similar to an accumulator, a limitless volume at constant pressure. I'll stick with pneumatics for rhetorical purposes.

A couple of things are right in my analogy: When the unloader (regulator) "turns on" it dumps excess flow, with no pressure (voltage) buildup and hence no work (power) wasted. The vfr's regulator is upstream (before) the rectifiers and can be thought of as an extra valve in the compressor cylinder head.

Of course, neither the unloader nor the RR are perfect, and there is some waste. In the unloader case the waste is the pressure built up to push air through the valve. In the RR's case it's similar: Regulator and rectifier diodes are rather like check valves, they need some pressure (voltage) to open them. In most cases, about 0.7 volts each. About five percent of the operating voltage, so about five percent of the total output power.

Here is where things get interesting: The regulator and the rectifier should cause exactly the same amount of power to be turned into heat. Deliver current to the electrical system, spend 5% on the rectifier, deliver current to regulator, spend 5% loss in the regulator.

When I was measuring the "unloaded" voltage on my VFR's alternator the drop (pressure loss) was more than you'd expect based on my analogy. Not a lot more, 2 volts instead of 1.4, but somewhat. This means an extra load on the electrical system will in fact reduce the heating of the RR, something other folks have noted as well.

Finally, a somewhat subtle point: Stators are designed to deliver a constant current; it's a property of the magnetic design, not number of windings. At various times folks observed what looked like overcurrent damage to RRs and attributed this to "shorted turns" in the stator. Shorted turns can't do that: they will lower the open circuit voltage but can't raise the output current, which is controlled by a ratio of two quantities; inductance and coupling between magnetic and electric fields. Shorting turns leaves the ratio unchanged and simply reduces open circuit voltage.

Replacing windings with fewer turns of lower DC resistance will increase a stator's output current, but that's not the scenario at hand.

There's no doubt that overcurrent damage occurs on charging systems, but the only source of extra current is the battery: A leaky (not shorted, just leaky) positive output rectifier will allow battery current to flow back through the stator windings and then to ground through the negative output rectifiers. The heating effect of reverse leakage on the diode is much greater than that of forward conduction, because of the larger (~13 volts vs .6 V) voltage drop in the reverse direction. Heat tends to increase diode leakage, resulting in thermal runaway. The fractional-ohm DC resistance of the stator windings and harness connections serve to limit the current, often to a value that does not blow the main (30 amp or so) fuse. However, 30 amps through two legs of the stator is more than the windings can take.

When the leak becomes big enough (comparable to the output current of a single phase) it can latch one or more regulating thyristors. This is not an easily-achieved situation, since the electrical system voltage is likely to be lower than the regulating point by this time.

If by some twist of bad luck the regulator kicks in, even if only for a fraction of a second, the active regulating thyristor then provides a good, clean short to ground, bypassing the stator windings. This is where you can get smoke and burst encapsulating resin from the RR. There was an alternative viewpoint expressed in an Electrex technical paper. It seems to have gone away, I can't find a replacement on the Electrosport website. Perhaps they agree :cool:. bob prohaska
 
I'm a little past sorry for starting this thread in the first place, but.... I did learn a lot about this weird (to me) shunt regulation, and available options. To re-iterate my original purposes, I want to upgrade my electrical system so that it is rock solid from low rpm to high continuous rpm, lights on or off, LED or not. That's quite a change from my current degraded state. But even the original design that everybody treats as normal requires a specific riding style, where you directly or inadvertently manage battery charge in some manner. The original design (with point ignition and kickstart), was less demanding with respect to power supply. But I like my electronic ignition.

Currently, I can't both run my incandescent lights and keep the sparkler operating when I'm in town. As I said, I'm tired of pushing the bike down the road after sitting too long at multiple stoplights, or sitting there holding 3000 rpm to keep it running when the battery is already flat. When I fix that, I want it better than original. To cover my slow operations, I need a bigger alternator or less load, or both. Either way, that means dumping more load when on the highway. When operational balance produces an excess, I (personally) want the series regulator or the original zener.

Consider this typical scenario: Cruising down the road, battery just recharged, just getting to where the alternator can get ahead of the game:

1) Original zener: essentially keeps alternator at full load. Not so bad for the alternator, at least its within original design.

2) Shunt regulator: In the same scenario--Regulator suddenly drops a FULL SHORT on the alternator in the latter part of every cycle to take power away from the DC side that it doesn't need. Thus, the net alternator current is higher than full load. If the alternator is oversized to the load, it's doing this all the more and actually working harder than a smaller alternator would be, since it is operating more time with a dead short.

3) Series regulator: switches off the alternator for some of the cycles and lets it loaf along at part load. Doesn't matter how oversized the alternator is, it just produces what's needed.

Sure, any of these can be made to work. When I was working as an engineer, we got into similar arguments all the time -- how good (i.e. expensive) do you want to make it? Lots of great (but overly expensive), or poor (but cheap) designs have put companies in the dustbin. Once you get into modifications, I think the business manager would go for the shunt type, the engineer for the series regulator.

So, getting back on track, after some troubleshooting, I'm going to LEDs with my 140 watt alternator, still with stock Zener, as a first step. If that doesn't satisfy me, then it's on to the 3-phase stator (for low rpm operation) and the series regulator (SH775 or SH847) to control the excess at high rpm. That's a combination that is sure to work as well as it can with readily available parts, with no adverse side effects regardless of load.


Both the Zener and the Pod are shunting regulators ( shorting if you prefer) The Zener uses Zener Diodes to clip the excess power, the Pod uses Thyristors. The excess electrical power in the system, when there is some, goes to ground and is converted into heat
Same Same as far as the alternator is concerned.

Glen
 
Is this saying the same thing again, as my last quote?

https://s3.amazonaws.com/gpzweb/RegRec/GPZvRegMagnetField.html



The way this type of regulator controls the alternator’s output voltage is by simply shorting out the stator winding for one cycle of the ac waveform. This is called shunting. This is done because it is much easier to short-circuit an inductor (the stator winding is an inductor) than to open-circuit an inductor. Very high voltages are induced when an inductor circuit is opened. This may cause a breakdown in the winding’s insulator.

A shunting type regulator is preferrable because a permanent magnet alternator, typically, is designed such that it puts out only a small amount of current at low RPMs. In order to maximize the output at low RPMs, the shunting type regulator, for all practical purposes, is non-existant in the charging circuit at low RPMs. This maximizes the output of the charging system at low RPMs.
 
Same Same as far as the alternator is concerned.

Glen

Not "same, same". Repeating for the xxx time, One goes to ground via a lot of resistance, inherently limiting the current via resistance and potential on the zener, and the other shorts the alternator coils directly, limited by the alternator capacity to generate. Be that as it may, the devil is in the details. At low rpm, essentially all the regulators are doing nothing but passing current to the load, and so their regulation method is moot. At high rpm, the quote provided above by Triton Thrasher above explains that the inherent alternator limitations kick-in and make the alternator current at least tolerable. But still higher.

I sent an Email to Boyer tech department on this, as to why they favor the shunt type. They tend to reply quickly, which I think speaks very well of the attitude of the company. They replied:

"Thank you for your enquiry, the shunt system is much more reliable, with series regulation on a permanent magnet alternator you can run into problems with very high voltage spikes, the standard 12v alternators produce over 200 volts, with very fast transients, this gives the switching devices a hard time.

Also if the battery disconnects when running the high voltages can destroy any electronics in the electrical system.

The load on the engine when little power is being used is very low, our test alternator motor driven rev's up to full rpm when the output is shorted.

Regards Tech Dept.
"

I did not see the spikes in the oscilloscope plots provided by Jeandr with SH775 posted here a couple years ago. That device seemed to pass full cycles periodically rather than switching at a non-zero point in the middle of a cycle (if I recall correctly). Perhaps that is key to its success. At any rate, the preponderance of regulators are clearly the shunt type, so clearly most designers favor them and they work. The fact that others go the other route shows it has advantages, different pitfalls, but it works too. Hopefully, the change to LEDs with original small alternator and zener will be ok for me (long live the zener!). In the end, choose your own poison.
 
If I’m understanding my own postings, a 120 W stator and other components aren’t having to dissipate 120 W of heat because the 10 A current is not across 12 V. The voltage is just the voltage drop across the components in series: rectifier, Zener and alternator coils.
 
Ted, it sounds like you've decided that the Zener shunt is easier on the Alternator than the Podtronics shunt and that's it.
In use, I haven't found that to be the case.
I've run both for many thousands of miles and can tell you that the alternator doesn't care which is installed.
Either one does the job nicely. I have close to 100,000 miles now on Podtronics shunt regs, no alternator issues. Bob Kizer mentioned that he had sold 12,000 Podtronics regs before John Healy at Coventry bought the rights about 7-8 years ago. There will be over 20,000 old bikes fitted with them now. If they were causing damage to alternators due to their design, we would know about it by now.
In our local Vincent club, most every bike is fitted with a Podtronics shunt reg. It was one of the " fit and forget" modern devices I was advised on when I first bought a Vincent in 2003. It truly has been a fit and forget item.

The low power issues you describe aren't something I've had to contend with on the Commando, that definitely needs a fix.
My Commando has the RM23 180 watt alternator, that helps. I run a 60 watt H4 and electronic ignition on that bike.

I can vouch for the latest LED headlight bulbs as sold by the Bonneville Shop. I have been running one on another bike which had a bit lower available charging output, 150 watts max and, of course, nowhere near that around town.
The LEDs are very bright and noticeable for daytime use/safety. They still are not quite on par with a good 60watt h4 for night use, mainly due to focus, not lumens.
Draw is only around 11 watts, so I run the LED headlight continuously.
Depending on the wattage of your existing headlight, provided your charging system is working properly, the LED might be all you need. In my case the switch was from a 55 watt to the 11 watts LED, a load reduction
of 44 watts, a big help.
You might also fit a Sparkbright Eclipse voltage monitor so that you can see what is happening re voltage in the system at any given time.
They are cheap (15 gbp+-) reliable and easy to fit.
If the Zeners are leaking or shorting continuously, or the Alternator isnt producing as it should, then that will show up on the Sparkbright.
It should glow green at highway speeds, if the charging system is working properly.
The Sparkbright once rescued me by showing a sudden charging problem when I was 1500 miles from home.

I'm not sure why you are " a little past sorry" that you started this thread.
I think everybody here is trying to help you, that's my goal.
I don't like to hear about a situation where an owner is unable to enjoy his vintage ride due to charging issues. It does occur quite frequently.
I've also learned something from this thread, and that is the info that series type regulators may cause alternator voltage spikes.
Time will tell if that is an issue with the old Lucas alternators.
In the meantime I'll stick with the regulation systems that have worked well for me and are still working fine, Zeners or Podtronics.

Glen
 
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Maylar-- that ebay link looks legitimate, but it clearly points to a Shindengen MOSFET "shunt" design, model FH020AA. As said before, this will work just fine and you will probably have no noticeable ill effects. The technology of that regulator is great. MOSFETs have very fast switch-on times and very low resistance once they are "on". This results in very little heating of the regulator itself and thus, theoretically the most reliable regulator type you can buy.
As for me, if I had the shunt type installed and working well, I'd not be in a hurry to change it. However, given the choice, I'll spend a bit more and go for the series type. So, Maylar, you bought a great unit. Enjoy it.

Ted

So, I just received the FH020AA from an eBay vendor. This thing is big, I dunno where I'm gonna put it. The fuse they supplied is like 2 inches square - I've never seen a blade fuse holder that big before. Looks like 12 or 10 gauge wires, fused at 30 amps. Holy cow. Definitely heavy duty. Will install tomorrow.
 
Glen- Thanks to you and everyone for the support. I learned a few things that will be very helpful, just got too wrapped up in debate over what's "best" among the viable options. Incidentally, I started digging through my wiring with a VOM, and found that my zener appears functional, but the wire to it at a connection appeared to be broken. So I think I was alternately overcharging on longer rides and then draining it flat in town. The battery (wet type) was low on a few cells confirming overcharge (of course, the ones you can't see from the side panel). Other connections seem ok, but I will probably change them out per experience of others noted here.

So I am ordering a battery (one thing I know for sure is shot) and will proceed from there.
 
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