Won't start

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Robb2014

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Well, I got my Pazon EI in the mail yesterday. Was amazed at how well written and clear the directions were. My compliments to the NZlanders. Having gotten used to Chinese/English/ pull your hair out/ translated directions for practically everything you buy anymore, it was refreshing to read something that actually made sense and was obviously proof read. I remember putting together a dresser from Ikea that wasn't this easy. However... still won't start, won't even pop. Here's all I've done: (*for those of you who aren't familiar, this bike has just been restored and hasn't been run in ten or fifteen years.)

Alternator rotor was checked to have key in slot

Timing mark checked and set at 31* with trigger

Double checked all wires coming out of EI, coils, trigger unit

Checked float bowls are filling with tickler

Checked spark, both cyls good

Rebuilt carbs, double checked factory settings

Gas is less than a month old

Didn't check compression with gage yet but it's obviously good given how tired I was after about 20 kicks.

I live in the Chicago suburbs and it's 36* out right now. Am wondering if I should heat up the garage and try my next start in there... my kerosun would probably raise the temp about 20* or so. Not crazy about starting in the garage on first start though.
 
Robb2014 said:
Well, I got my Pazon EI in the mail yesterday. Was amazed at how well written and clear the directions were. My compliments to the NZlanders. Having gotten used to Chinese/English/ pull your hair out/ translated directions for practically everything you buy anymore, it was refreshing to read something that actually made sense and was obviously proof read. I remember putting together a dresser from Ikea that wasn't this easy. However... still won't start, won't even pop. Here's all I've done: (*for those of you who aren't familiar, this bike has just been restored and hasn't been run in ten or fifteen years.)

Alternator rotor was checked to have key in slot

Timing mark checked and set at 31* with trigger

Double checked all wires coming out of EI, coils, trigger unit

Checked float bowls are filling with tickler

Checked spark, both cyls good

Rebuilt carbs, double checked factory settings

Gas is less than a month old

Didn't check compression with gage yet but it's obviously good given how tired I was after about 20 kicks.

I live in the Chicago suburbs and it's 36* out right now. Am wondering if I should heat up the garage and try my next start in there... my kerosun would probably raise the temp about 20* or so. Not crazy about starting in the garage on first start though.
Click to expand...


It will probably smoke pretty bad for a minute or so. Keep it outside. Be ready to kill it if it shoots up to 5k rpm like mine did.
Hold the throttle open about 1/8 to 1/4 turn when kicking it.
Flick the kill switch a couple times before starting to make sure it is not engaged (If it is the original pushbutton type).
Battery good?
Make sure key is in correct position. Basic, I know.
Petcock open?
Choke?
 
It will probably smoke pretty bad for a minute or so. Keep it outside. Be ready to kill it if it shoots up to 5k rpm like mine did.
Hold the throttle open about 1/8 to 1/4 turn when kicking it.
Flick the kill switch a couple times before starting to make sure it is not engaged (If it is the original pushbutton type).
Battery good?
Make sure key is in correct position. Basic, I know.
Petcock open?
Choke?[/quote]


Check on all that... I'm assuming kill switch is OK because it's getting spark... or am I wrong to necessarily assume this? As far as the choke... this is a little confusing for a few reasons. For one, some models have the choke on the right, some on the left. It makes a difference whether the open position is parallel or perpendicular with the handlebars. I have mine on the left and have had it in the perpendicular position for start. (I wish I had looked at this inside the barrels when I had the insulators off.) In addition, seems like half the guys on here say forget the choke... pull it off the bike or don't use it; and the other half say you can't start without it on a cold day. Also, from what I've been reading, Commandos don't like starting very much below 40 degrees F. anyway, and am wondering if I'm just stacking the deck against myself on a 36* F. day.
 
Robb2014 said:
As far as the choke... this is a little confusing for a few reasons. For one, some models have the choke on the right, some on the left. It makes a difference whether the open position is parallel or perpendicular with the handlebars. I have mine on the left and have had it in the perpendicular position for start. (I wish I had looked at this inside the barrels when I had the insulators off.)
Click to expand...

Pulling the choke wire tight is choke OFF (for Concentric Mk1s) regardless of lever position or which side of the handlebar the lever is fitted.
 
Like LAB just stated, doesn't matter where the choke lever is located. You pull the choke off and slacken the lever to engage the choke. Pulling the lever retracts the choke slides, slackening the lever lowers the slides into the air stream, enriching the mixture.

Are you sure the timing is set to TDC and not BDC? There are two marks on the rotor - one is right for the Commando, one is wrong. Remember, this is a lucas part, and made for a number of applications. Check that the mark you're using is just before the pistons reach the top of the stroke.

I paint my rotor at the TDC mark with a white line in the groove and black on the flats on each side. This way, its easy to see with any timing light, and no guesswork as to which mark is right.
 
L.A.B. said:
Robb2014 said:
As far as the choke... this is a little confusing for a few reasons. For one, some models have the choke on the right, some on the left. It makes a difference whether the open position is parallel or perpendicular with the handlebars. I have mine on the left and have had it in the perpendicular position for start. (I wish I had looked at this inside the barrels when I had the insulators off.)
Click to expand...

Pulling the choke wire tight is choke OFF (for Concentric Mk1s) regardless of lever position or which side of the handlebar the lever is fitted.
Click to expand...

Thanks, that's opposite of what I thought.
 
Are you sure the idle circuit is clean in the carbs. I'd pull them off, remove the air adjuster screw, squirt carb cleaner into that port you should get carb cleaner coming out of the pilot air intake hole and out the jets too. Read about it here http://www.jba.bc.ca/Bushmans%20Carb%20Tuning.html

Did you clean the pilot hole with a .016 wire or drill? It's really hard to find.

The choke doesn't do that much that I can tell, but I still use it. Like others say, cable tight, choke off, cable loose, choke on. But you don't want to run down the road with the choke on, don't ask.

20 kicks is way too many. It shouldn't take more than 3-5 and only 1 if everything is right. Are you following through the complete stroke on the kick starter? I have to put my weight into it. Get it just over compression and then a good swift kick through the next compression cycle. Don't be wimpy about it. 20 kicks would have me on the ground completely out of breath.

Dave
69S
 
BillT said:
Like LAB just stated, doesn't matter where the choke lever is located. You pull the choke off and slacken the lever to engage the choke. Pulling the lever retracts the choke slides, slackening the lever lowers the slides into the air stream, enriching the mixture.

Are you sure the timing is set to TDC and not BDC? There are two marks on the rotor - one is right for the Commando, one is wrong. Remember, this is a lucas part, and made for a number of applications. Check that the mark you're using is just before the pistons reach the top of the stroke.

I paint my rotor at the TDC mark with a white line in the groove and black on the flats on each side. This way, its easy to see with any timing light, and no guesswork as to which mark is right.
Click to expand...

Should this matter with electronic ignition which fires at the top of exhaust and compression?
 
DogT said:
Are you sure the idle circuit is clean in the carbs. I'd pull them off, remove the air adjuster screw, squirt carb cleaner into that port you should get carb cleaner coming out of the pilot air intake hole and out the jets too. Read about it here http://www.jba.bc.ca/Bushmans%20Carb%20Tuning.html

Did you clean the pilot hole with a .016 wire or drill? It's really hard to find.

The choke doesn't do that much that I can tell, but I still use it. Like others say, cable tight, choke off, cable loose, choke on. But you don't want to run down the road with the choke on, don't ask.

20 kicks is way too many. It shouldn't take more than 3-5 and only 1 if everything is right. Are you following through the complete stroke on the kick starter? I have to put my weight into it. Get it just over compression and then a good swift kick through the next compression cycle. Don't be wimpy about it. 20 kicks would have me on the ground completely out of breath.

Dave
69S
Click to expand...

I'm about as certain as I can be with my limited knowledge that everything's good with the carbs. I followed that link you posted pretty closely when I rebuilt them... squirted carb cleaner through all the holes, stuck some safety wire through the pilot hole. Given that I was using the choke backwards, maybe that combined with the low temp was all it took... but you'd think I'd at least have gotten a pop or two out of it.
 
Robb2014 said:
BillT said:
Are you sure the timing is set to TDC and not BDC? There are two marks on the rotor - one is right for the Commando, one is wrong. Remember, this is a lucas part, and made for a number of applications. Check that the mark you're using is just before the pistons reach the top of the stroke.

I paint my rotor at the TDC mark with a white line in the groove and black on the flats on each side. This way, its easy to see with any timing light, and no guesswork as to which mark is right.
Click to expand...

Should this matter with electronic ignition which fires at the top of exhaust and compression?
Click to expand...

Yes, it still matters.
 
hi,
check location of trigger with pistons at tdc it should be at or very near the firing position. if not u having timing set wrong. if u have fuel and spark bike should start unless timing way off. u said u checked and set timing by mark at rotor this may not be same as pistons at tdc and trigger ready to fire. I would check here for my trouble.
Dox
 
DOXFORD said:
hi,
check location of trigger with pistons at tdc it should be at or very near the firing position. if not u having timing set wrong. if u have fuel and spark bike should start unless timing way off. u said u checked and set timing by mark at rotor this may not be same as pistons at tdc and trigger ready to fire. I would check here for my trouble.
Dox
Click to expand...

According to Pazon's instructions, I first set the index on the rotor to 31* then went through the setup for the trigger. I will check this again and make sure the index mark I'm using is close to TDC checking the piston height through the plug hole. Just curious... how hard are these bikes to start when the temp is down in the 30's?
 
Robb2014 said:
DOXFORD said:
Just curious... how hard are these bikes to start when the temp is down in the 30's?
Click to expand...
Click to expand...

Rode in the snow a few months back. Below freezing. Flooded the carbs, just a little throttle and starts first kick every time. This is a pommie bike, they love it cold.

What makes mine hard to kick is wet sumping. Drain the sump before you try and start it.

If you have fuel and spark and the timing is within reason, it will run.

Cheers
 
[quote="Nortiboy" Drain the sump before you try and start it.

Cheers[/quote]

Just remember to put that oil back in the tank!

Regarding rotor mark:

The rotor turns at the same speed as the crank, the distributor turns at 1/2 crank speed. While its true that both plugs fire at the same time (wasted spark ignition), if you have the trigger set to the wrong mark on the rotor, your trigger will be firing at BDC. At TDC, the distributor will be off the trigger by 90 degrees

Rotate the engine to TDC, if the distributor rotor is roughly in line with the trigger, you should be fine, if its off by 90 degrees, reset to the proper mark.
 
Remove spark plugs, are they wet with gas?
Have you got spark -on turn over?
Kill switch in run position?
Try squirt of ether by syringe or commercial equivalent [éngine start] down plug hole & replace plug.
Kick `er in the guts.
Make sacrificial blood offering to god of iron per Conan...
 
not saying its your issue but on my bike I was having a bear of a time figuring it out as my bike wasnt starting after installing a el ignition.


My issue was a bad ground. I ditched my ground cable I made for a new one and it started right up. Check your grounding.
 
Robb2014 said:
Didn't check compression with gage yet but it's obviously good given how tired I was after about 20 kicks.
Click to expand...
Not necessarily.
Take the plugs out and kick it of 20 and you will still be huffing and puffing. While you are it, you might as well stick a pressure tester in one cylinder and check the compression.
Don't be like SD and keep kicking till you are blue. I does no good and just wears on the gearbox, splines and back spines(vertebrae).
If it doesn't pop after a few kick then recheck settings and repeat.

Fuel + spark + timing = go go, if all else is well.

Remember, these are simple machine's and it is a matter of process and procedure to run them down the road.
YOU CAN DO IT!
 
Ugh. I'd be careful of the ether/starting fluid. My John Deere book says to have the engine turning over before you use it or there's a possibility of blowing holes in the piston. Diesel of course.

Dave
69S
 
Jeeze, DogT, do you reckon Nortons are that agricultural?, remember, its cold over there, he needs a bit of a volatile mix, acetone will also do it, maybe borrow a squirt of the missus`s nail polish remover...
 
Hallelujah. Without changing a thing since yesterday, I just went out to try another start. It gave me a kickback on the first kick. 2nd kick it started and revved up to about 4 or 5 grand.... tach's not working. Anyway, shut it down because of the high rpms, wheeled it outside, started on 2nd kick and ran up to a very high but not damagingly high idle. I ran it for 2 or 3 minutes and shut it down. The only reason I didn't let it run longer was there's a steady miss, and number 1 cylinder is running so lean... or just hot... that it yellowed the pipe in that 2 or 3 minutes. I think I know what's wrong with the tach and will fix that before starting again. Anyone have a suggestion on that number 1 cylinder? All in all it was great hearing it run after all these years. These bastards are frking loud though.
 
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