Wobble and Weave

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"I think we'd lose at least half the forum if everybody took their bikes to 90mph, shut off suddenly and sat up bolt upright. "

Well, I don't know…I've done exactly that, even from somewhat higher speeds with no odd handling at all. But obviously, this behavior must occur fairly regularly with all the discussion about it so I can't explain why two of my Commandos never did it WITH OEM TIRES/WHEELS. I'm just happy they didn't! :)

My current 850 DID do that with the silly wheel/tire combo that the previous owner had on the bike where the front wheel/tire was about 2" smaller diameter than the rear but changing to oem-sized front/rear tires/wheels solved the problem.
 
Hobot
Just what do you call steering? Are you thinking low speed turns, like around a round about?
You can't go around a corner at any speed without steering, it's not just a matter of leaning.
Try welding your front end so it can't turn either way. Hop on the bike and at any speed
you fancy, see what happens at the first corner. It will be your last corner!

I have thought about this for many years but never did test out my theory. So please report
back, after you have picked yourself out of the gravel. Ask yourself, why does my bike turn
(and lean), when I pull the right handlebar? We all know that is a gyroscopic issue. But will
it do it with the front end welded straight? It can't.

Now I don't know if the fat tyres are the issue but they must be to some extent. Fork rake
another? I would say of course. Little 17" wheels? Less gyroscopic effect here, so maybe yes.

A lot has happened to design since Norton ruled the motorcycle world with the featherbed
frame. Then the "space" frame of the Commando which handled just as well as the featherbed
my early Dominator had, in my opinion. So long as you didn't mind sometimes bending like a
banana in dip corners, but that was an isolastic rubber issue.

Very early Commandos had a 3.00 front tyre which ended up as a 4.10 on the Combat, and
remained as such up to and including the unapproachable Mk III. My early (and jealously
guarded) magazine road test reports tell me that early 3.00 tyre offered very very precise
steering, but not a lot of tyre left when on a serious lean. I assumed the 4.10 tyre size of
the Combat remained a constant up to and including the Mk III. According to my original
and never before looked at Mk III Rider Manual, there was a 3.50 Dunlop ribbed option
also available. But I never saw one. I lost interest in Nortons for a short time, after my Combat
head parted company with the barrels at very high speed, going straight through the petrol
tank, knocking my cigarette straight out of my mouth! I was just recovering interest when
Norton brought out the Mk III, ending my love affair completely. Shame I didn't at least try
one. But I was an avid 750 Commando traditionalist in those days. It took me a few years
before I fell in love with Nortons again, after tiring of playing in the sand pit with my
choo chop train.
 
chasbmw said:
Use your loaf = use your head-think
Click to expand...

Pommies have heads, but they certainly can't think.
Otherwise they would not be worshipping a queen :)

God knows how they ever thought up the Norton!!
 
A choo chop train is a choo choo train where some idiot let spell check have its way with his post!!
 
Phil, you and Kieth Code and Tony Foate and most the world simply don't know, experineced or understand all the extreme behaviors of changing directions on different types of cycles on different surfaces at different speeds and different power loads. Any and everything you know about cycle handling fully and completely applies to you, me and every one else
***UNTIL***
the going gets tough then control actions can and do reverse, throttle, brakes and forks steering effects. Everyone but me apparently see's the flat tracker crossed up style as some badge of honor to pull off but not me - I see it as lazy relaxed day dreamy way to ridiculously widen radius while wasting tires time and traction. I can define and ride 5 different phases of cycle turning and only consider the crossed up tire spin flat tracker style as merely a fun luxury extension of normal everyday counter steering when plenty of room all around. i use this fun flat tracker crossed up style now and then to climb up a banked Gravel turns w/o changing my phase 2 counter steering angle or lean angle to line up to exit for slight hi side pop up for straight up power out of there > when I'm not in a hurry but don't want to slow down back into what everyone thinks is the hot shot way around - pashaw. If I tired the this type flat tracker turn when in a hurry I'd end up in fence or the tree beyond.

You and others with normal ordinary limited experience, GP racers included reflexly think I'm pulling your leg or bluffing with ego BS. I simply do not care nor give any weight to such mere beliefs as I've lived and almost died learning the facts of the matter. I gave up on moderns and un-tamed isolastics same way you would after peeing on a spark plug or electric fence, don't take long to learn its not fun and can hurt. I'm holding out for my tool of choice with 3x's more power to take advantage of it and see what the world thinks then.

If you study GP deep and long enough you will see a few riders lift the front on finishing one turn to exit into another and even closer exam will show the whole frame wiggles and walks around on fat tire patch touch down, pashaw > I got to where I'd fly the moderns up to let the wiggle worms settle down before landing w/o lossing much momentum while letting it turn in the air to land lined up on smashed down tire patches to hit with torque to leap off the combined tire spring back. Poor moderns can not wind up/twist their rigid ringing frames/forks to store up extra energy to sling shot even faster higher further but my ole Peel sure could easy as pie.

Of course to do this one must develop distinct sense of changing tire temps and humidity on Van der Walhs and hydrogen bonding on the molecular make break digital traction for each turn to be predicable enough not to be your last. Only LSD and psilocibin compare to the level of out of body thrills I with under powered Peel, which was still powerful enough I'd trip her down to sharp turns in 2nd 60-70's to make em all delicious accelerating decreaser vision tunnel-diming-black outs to resist with fighter pilot breath control to keep focus on next aim point. If ya can set me straighter on motorcycling fun please chime in.
When you can leave race tires with 1/8" smeared out tags off the grooves rather than gum ball melted lumps or abraded away over spun I'm all ears. Do not commute on Gravel roads as the lesions are harsher than being told by everyone you are full of it.
 
I have thought about this for many years but never did test out my theory. So please report
back, after you have picked yourself out of the gravel. Ask yourself, why does my bike turn
(and lean), when I pull the right handlebar? We all know that is a gyroscopic issue. But will
it do it with the front end welded straight? It can't.

Pull handle bar right, bike goes left. And vice versa.
 
hobot said:
Phil, you and Kieth Code and Tony Foate and most the world simply don't know, experineced or understand all the extreme behaviors of changing directions on different types of cycles on different surfaces at different speeds and different power loads. Any and everything you know about cycle handling fully and completely applies to you, me and every one else
***UNTIL***
the going gets tough then control actions can and do reverse, throttle, brakes and forks steering effects. Everyone but me apparently see's the flat tracker crossed up style as some badge of honor to pull off but not me - I see it as lazy relaxed day dreamy way to ridiculously widen radius while wasting tires time and traction. I can define and ride 5 different phases of cycle turning and only consider the crossed up tire spin flat tracker style as merely a fun luxury extension of normal everyday counter steering when plenty of room all around. i use this fun flat tracker crossed up style now and then to climb up a banked Gravel turns w/o changing my phase 2 counter steering angle or lean angle to line up to exit for slight hi side pop up for straight up power out of there > when I'm not in a hurry but don't want to slow down back into what everyone thinks is the hot shot way around - pashaw. If I tired the this type flat tracker turn when in a hurry I'd end up in fence or the tree beyond.

You and others with normal ordinary limited experience, GP racers included reflexly think I'm pulling your leg or bluffing with ego BS. I simply do not care nor give any weight to such mere beliefs as I've lived and almost died learning the facts of the matter. I gave up on moderns and un-tamed isolastics same way you would after peeing on a spark plug or electric fence, don't take long to learn its not fun and can hurt. I'm holding out for my tool of choice with 3x's more power to take advantage of it and see what the world thinks then.

If you study GP deep and long enough you will see a few riders lift the front on finishing one turn to exit into another and even closer exam will show the whole frame wiggles and walks around on fat tire patch touch down, pashaw > I got to where I'd fly the moderns up to let the wiggle worms settle down before landing w/o lossing much momentum while letting it turn in the air to land lined up on smashed down tire patches to hit with torque to leap off the combined tire spring back. Poor moderns can not wind up/twist their rigid ringing frames/forks to store up extra energy to sling shot even faster higher further but my ole Peel sure could easy as pie.

Of course to do this one must develop distinct sense of changing tire temps and humidity on Van der Walhs and hydrogen bonding on the molecular make break digital traction for each turn to be predicable enough not to be your last. Only LSD and psilocibin compare to the level of out of body thrills I with under powered Peel, which was still powerful enough I'd trip her down to sharp turns in 2nd 60-70's to make em all delicious accelerating decreaser vision tunnel-diming-black outs to resist with fighter pilot breath control to keep focus on next aim point. If ya can set me straighter on motorcycling fun please chime in.
When you can leave race tires with 1/8" smeared out tags off the grooves rather than gum ball melted lumps or abraded away over spun I'm all ears. Do not commute on Gravel roads as the lesions are harsher than being told by everyone you are full of it.
Click to expand...


Hobot
You are probably a nice guy.
But just how long have you been on LSD?
Is there any chance you could speak in English?
I'm having terrible trouble understanding you.

My comments were not about flat trackers and twisting handlebars. Nor use of throttle.
That is a different subject again.

I was talking about theory and gyroscopic principles, along with tyre size and their effect.

If you want to kill yourself on a motorbike, go for it.
I don't need to, certainly not to get my kicks at my age.
Been there, done all that! Luckily still alive.

Go try my experiment, then report back.
Preferably in English.
 
My 1971 Commando came with 4.10 Avon GPs and it had the speed weave out of the box. I had the dealership mechanics try to fix it, no luck. At that time there were new, sharp edged, "rain grooves" that had been cut into the concrete of the local So California "freeways" and that is what I was told was the cause. When the Avons wore out, I found that the bike still had the speed weave with K-81s.

When I figured out that the speed weave was harmless but frightening I just rode through it. Later I figured out that what I was doing was tucking in and shifting my weight to the rear . . . .
 
My late 72 Combat also had the same 4.10 Avon GP's
For no reason other than looks, I fancied the K81's,
but never ever got any. They were rare as hobot eggs
here in Australia.

My Combat did have a weave but it only occurred late
at night coming home from the pub.

Every other time, its behaviour was impeccable, bar
the hands off wobble mentioned earlier. Apparently
cured on the 850. I can't imagine why yours would weave,
even if sitting rearwards. But perhaps I never tried this.
 
phil yates said:
My Combat did have a weave but it only occurred late
at night coming home from the pub.
Click to expand...

:D I remember that weave too.

phil yates said:
Every other time, its behaviour was impeccable, bar
the hands off wobble mentioned earlier. Apparently
cured on the 850. I can't imagine why yours would weave,
even if sitting rearwards. But perhaps I never tried this.
Click to expand...

Norton's weren't the only bikes that wobbled when you took your hands off the bars. For some reason we talk about that like it was a Norton issue...funny thing is, why are we taking our hands off the bars in the first place?
 
Every single Commando I have owned or ridden has exhibited the same behavior of being imbalanced

by that I mean that as you remove your hands from the bars even with the throttle screw stop in place,
the bikes will almost immediately want to move left, so much so that I have to shift my weight over to the right on the seat to counteract

am I nuts?

every single Commando through the years has the same tendency that I have ridden

my guess for the reason is because the left side is weighted more heavily than the right side, the entire primary, clutch, chain, and rear drive chain, sprockets, etc, is all on the left side

just my take on why Commandos do not track straight if left entirely to their own devices, no hands on bars..
 
dennisgb said:
phil yates said:
My Combat did have a weave but it only occurred late
at night coming home from the pub.
Click to expand...

:D I remember that weave too.

phil yates said:
Every other time, its behaviour was impeccable, bar
the hands off wobble mentioned earlier. Apparently
cured on the 850. I can't imagine why yours would weave,
even if sitting rearwards. But perhaps I never tried this.
Click to expand...

Norton's weren't the only bikes that wobbled when you took your hands off the bars. For some reason we talk about that like it was a Norton issue...funny thing is, why are we taking our hands off the bars in the first place?
Click to expand...

Well I don't actually remember the weave at all. Everything seemed fine to me. But friends riding behind would say it was weaving all over the road. Funny that. But the bike was most unstable whenever you stopped. It just wanted to fall straight on its side!!

We road hands off to impress the girl hanging on to you for dear life on the back of the seat. Combined with the weaving, it must have frightened the crap out of them!! A weave and a wobble at the same time. Then stopping in a remote area, we would tell them what NNNRM painted on the tank really meant.
It was not:
No Noisey Nortons Round Here
Which was our story for the Church priest!!
 
Should read:
NNNRH painted on the side of the tank.

Someone will know what it means, besides my brother.

24 hrs to guess it right, or up she goes again!!
That's not "up she goes" as in "or are you just pleased to see me?"
 
I lost interest in Nortons for a short time, after my Combat
head parted company with the barrels at very high speed, going straight through the petrol
tank, knocking my cigarette straight out of my mouth! I was just recovering interest when
Norton brought out the Mk III, ending my love affair completely.
Click to expand...

Phil In my haste prepping for a speeding ticket - no driver license case this am I over looked your cosmic level blow up! Crapola, what were your doing to cause that? [last yr got same charges dismissed over 3 appearances and almost jailed 1st] Truth is I never came down, thank goodness. I got impression Norton tried to appeal to American Harley market with the 850's configuration, good as they are compared to about anything else excdept 750's. I didn't know what a Commando was in '99 so configured my pre-Peel with huge Kings/Queen saddle, floppy leather bags and under chin tool kit with tall T140 'ape' bars. The rebuild into Peel was as a hard bagger foot forward, till after 1st 1000 miles got bored and disgusted I didn't buy a real sports bike so I tired to break and crash 'it' >>> till my world turned inside out whispering her new iconic fantasy character name.

What do ya want to know about cycle handling and Commando's in general?
I hold with 'up&dn' that the power unit DS primary mass as well as its 3/16" to 3/8" LH shift is the main reason Cdo's tend to drift L hands off so definitely on my mind configuring next Peel. i also can sense the front disc mass pulling forks by gravity to its side though much less an effect than the whole out of balance power unit. RH rotor tends to turn forks to R which via counter steering moves bike towards center of the road. Personally I think the ONLY thing that steers any inline cycle is the angle of lean and/or line of drive off the rear tire thrust. Forks are just like a rudder to get the rear then both tires working to turn the craft, just like a boat or a plane. We see stunters showing how that works going slow but in some ways its easier going fast. I have been spoiled by past Peel which was amazingly totally neutral barely tending to drift L up crowns hands off and essentially not at all over 70-80, likely d/t the wheel gryos resisting the leaning and fork angling. Last rides on Peel were done to practice hands off body slams at 110 to aim into turns, especially down hill not to bleed speed so much. Peel would hold that lean angle and turn radius till I slammed her up on down. Hands off forks will automatically road follow the rear's lean angle aim by straight steering. Peel would slow to below 20 mph before forks began to oscillate and then not bad to grab till almost stopped. Can't do that on my factory Combat below 35 on new tires and 50 on bad tires. Forks Must Oscillate to stay upright, though few but Peel can sense it at hi speed but has a lot to do with racers saying not to stiff arm the bars.

To me the reason Combats got 4.10 tire in front was to get more advantage of the disc brake. I tired 100 front last yr on factory Trixie and will not wait to wear it out like my 110's to the edges, as its wearing the center out fast. Never had that happen on before, always wore to flat wedges either side of still decent center. So will be rid of it as my ignorant red hot nail job locks it up too easy.

A totally neutral cycle does not trip down automatically with tire spin or loss of traction, it just holds same lean and fork angle while it drifts wider on the tangent till ya let up power then hooks suddenly to bounce back upright or way further than that for fun. This does wild things to the frame - which is a big mystery to rest of the world. This slide drift skip states do require strong stiff arming bars to dampen the fork flutter and snatches but by golly when the slide ends ya better let the fork go an instant to snap to where they want to then regrip to hold new aim.

If ya can keep the pressure on a Cdo suspension and isolatics they can whip around wonderful but soon as enough pressure let off the innate slack in isolastics rubbers and gaps can build up positively. Ride w/o a head steady at own risk but that and half flat tires will train you like nothing else. Main thing about old hard tires ain't so much lack of traction, which is kind of nice to explore rear skip outs even on un-tammed iso's but mostly they are hard in side walls too so bang back into suspension and isolatics till weave/wobble hinging onsets too dam soon and harsh. If ya let air out to compensate only helps up to a point then tires wallow on their patches upseting into hinging bucking bronco. When on Peel if I saw a fork damper i did not bother with them. Peel was best on 120 rear 110 front but on Trixie the 120 felt too much like running in boots.
 
1up3down said:
Every single Commando I have owned or ridden has exhibited the same behavior of being imbalanced

by that I mean that as you remove your hands from the bars even with the throttle screw stop in place,
the bikes will almost immediately want to move left, so much so that I have to shift my weight over to the right on the seat to counteract

am I nuts?

every single Commando through the years has the same tendency that I have ridden

my guess for the reason is because the left side is weighted more heavily than the right side, the entire primary, clutch, chain, and rear drive chain, sprockets, etc, is all on the left side

just my take on why Commandos do not track straight if left entirely to their own devices, no hands on bars..
Click to expand...

Has every Commando you've owned had a disc brake right side, behind fork leg? If so, I have some news for you. If not, they must have been all bent.
 
olChris said:
phil yates said:
Should read:
NNNRH painted on the side of the tank.

Someone will know what it means, besides my brother.

24 hrs to guess it right, or up she goes again!!
That's not "up she goes" as in "or are you just pleased to see me?"
Click to expand...

http://www.stickerdude.com.au/nrnr-no-r ... p-107.html

So do i win a prize???
Click to expand...

I could not find your answer.
PRINT IT OUT - IN HERE!!

The clock is ticking!!!
 
hobot said:
I lost interest in Nortons for a short time, after my Combat
head parted company with the barrels at very high speed, going straight through the petrol
tank, knocking my cigarette straight out of my mouth! I was just recovering interest when
Norton brought out the Mk III, ending my love affair completely.
Click to expand...

Phil In my haste prepping for a speeding ticket - no driver license case this am I over looked your cosmic level blow up! Crapola, what were your doing to cause that? [last yr got same charges dismissed over 3 appearances and almost jailed 1st] Truth is I never came down, thank goodness. I got impression Norton tried to appeal to American Harley market with the 850's configuration, good as they are compared to about anything else excdept 750's. I didn't know what a Commando was in '99 so configured my pre-Peel with huge Kings/Queen saddle, floppy leather bags and under chin tool kit with tall T140 'ape' bars. The rebuild into Peel was as a hard bagger foot forward, till after 1st 1000 miles got bored and disgusted I didn't buy a real sports bike so I tired to break and crash 'it' >>> till my world turned inside out whispering her new iconic fantasy character name.

What do ya want to know about cycle handling and Commando's in general?
I hold with 'up&dn' that the power unit DS primary mass as well as its 3/16" to 3/8" LH shift is the main reason Cdo's tend to drift L hands off so definitely on my mind configuring next Peel. i also can sense the front disc mass pulling forks by gravity to its side though much less an effect than the whole out of balance power unit. RH rotor tends to turn forks to R which via counter steering moves bike towards center of the road. Personally I think the ONLY thing that steers any inline cycle is the angle of lean and/or line of drive off the rear tire thrust. Forks are just like a rudder to get the rear then both tires working to turn the craft, just like a boat or a plane. We see stunters showing how that works going slow but in some ways its easier going fast. I have been spoiled by past Peel which was amazingly totally neutral barely tending to drift L up crowns hands off and essentially not at all over 70-80, likely d/t the wheel gryos resisting the leaning and fork angling. Last rides on Peel were done to practice hands off body slams at 110 to aim into turns, especially down hill not to bleed speed so much. Peel would hold that lean angle and turn radius till I slammed her up on down. Hands off forks will automatically road follow the rear's lean angle aim by straight steering. Peel would slow to below 20 mph before forks began to oscillate and then not bad to grab till almost stopped. Can't do that on my factory Combat below 35 on new tires and 50 on bad tires. Forks Must Oscillate to stay upright, though few but Peel can sense it at hi speed but has a lot to do with racers saying not to stiff arm the bars.

To me the reason Combats got 4.10 tire in front was to get more advantage of the disc brake. I tired 100 front last yr on factory Trixie and will not wait to wear it out like my 110's to the edges, as its wearing the center out fast. Never had that happen on before, always wore to flat wedges either side of still decent center. So will be rid of it as my ignorant red hot nail job locks it up too easy.

A totally neutral cycle does not trip down automatically with tire spin or loss of traction, it just holds same lean and fork angle while it drifts wider on the tangent till ya let up power then hooks suddenly to bounce back upright or way further than that for fun. This does wild things to the frame - which is a big mystery to rest of the world. This slide drift skip states do require strong stiff arming bars to dampen the fork flutter and snatches but by golly when the slide ends ya better let the fork go an instant to snap to where they want to then regrip to hold new aim.

If ya can keep the pressure on a Cdo suspension and isolatics they can whip around wonderful but soon as enough pressure let off the innate slack in isolastics rubbers and gaps can build up positively. Ride w/o a head steady at own risk but that and half flat tires will train you like nothing else. Main thing about old hard tires ain't so much lack of traction, which is kind of nice to explore rear skip outs even on un-tammed iso's but mostly they are hard in side walls too so bang back into suspension and isolatics till weave/wobble hinging onsets too dam soon and harsh. If ya let air out to compensate only helps up to a point then tires wallow on their patches upseting into hinging bucking bronco. When on Peel if I saw a fork damper i did not bother with them. Peel was best on 120 rear 110 front but on Trixie the 120 felt too much like running in boots.
Click to expand...

Hobbit
I'm not sure I can see in here any results of the simple experiment you were asked to experience. Take your beloved Orange Peel, lock the front end straight and see what happens to you, and the bike. I know the answer.

Forks have nothing to do with an aircraft rudder in a turn. Rudder is very much secondary in an aircraft. I have been flying the suckers for over forty years. Airliners, Corporate Jets and everything else. Gliders? a different story with them.

4.10 on the front end to take advantage of the disc brake?
Maybe but I doubt it. The disc break didn't do much better than the drum.
Maybe even worse!!
The Mk III is at least somewhat progressive and seemingly more powerful
than I remember the Combat's. But 3.50 was offered as optional on the
Mk III anyway! Kind of kills your reasoning.

I did at least better understand your post, English on the improve.
Try the experiment and report.
I'd do it myself,
But I am not that stupid!
 
Well phil if I made sense to anyone then I wouldn't be so eager to define corner cripple with Peel project. The skeletal vintage hill climbers I saw at a rally floored me with their tiny Chevy orange tanks and levels so loose they swung freely, so when I saw similar tank in my buddy's bone yard I grabbed it. Something only Peel can use though as her forks need the extra swing room. As long as the front tire in traction it affects steering and ya can steer whole bike on front as stunters do but consider how important the front is when cycle power lifts it out of traction in turns or off the surface. Kieth Code showed us his NO-HANDS cycle like you describe, with grips on the windscreen but forks about clamped straight ahead so impossible to steer. This is his proof the front steers the bike.

That was my inspiration to work up body slams that steered in direction forks pointing but if hands on bars bike wil steer same turn by counter steering. When I cross THE Gravel about 40 mph or cause a cycle to lean over on its own w/o help of the forks the forks snap into straight steering. I ran into another hint d/t slow rear leaks so front got better direction authority than rear for dangerous handling with sense of front fighting rear rather than assisting it. We are both right in that most the time its like you say while in others its opposite like I say. I can tell ya one thing for sure if ya try to only do it your way, stay off THE Gravel and grass with any spirited purpose. If ya can hunt down trail riders with camera showing bars and direction of aim when just going straight down a trail you'll see partly what I mean. Safe exploring a long time for all of us.

[video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uX2QP06lKZM[/video]
We are both right, either end or both can steer cycles.
 
Has every Commando you've owned had a disc brake right side, behind fork leg? If so, I have some news for you. If not, they must have been all bent.
Click to expand...

no, Phil

my 71 had a drum front, my 72. 73. and 74 had the disc on the right side, and my 75 Mark3 on the left side

ok, I suppose I happened to buy, new, all the "bent" ones, such is my luck, that what you are saying Phil?

and by being bent, apparently you conclude that my contention of Commandos being weighted "left" is invalid and thus you have some "news for me"

well go ahead, oh gifted one, give me the news, educate me .....
 
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