why was a 19" sized rear wheel selected? huge deal going 16?
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Re: why was a 19" sized rear wheel selected? huge deal going
One of the worst things I ever did was fit 18 inch wheels to my Triton to get decent rubber onto it. It turned into a heavy handling dog which was exhausting to ride in long races. Great on a really big circuit, however useless on a tight one. When you do that you change the trail. The difference that replacing the 18 inch wheel in the front of an RG250 Suzuki with 17 inch was I/2 degree of rake decrease. That is about all it takes to make a bike self-steer under power or stand up and turn the wrong way under brakes. I suggest that if you are changing wheel size, you need to measure the rake with a magnetic base protractor and also the trail. Then do some reading looking at the specs of various bikes and you can get a pretty fair idea of what you changes might create in the handling department. Better still go to a race meeting and sneak up and have a look at what is on the faster commandos. If you fit a 16 inch rear wheel, you would need much longer rear shocks to get the rake and trail right in the front. - Silly stuff.xbacksideslider said:
concours
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Re: why was a 19" sized rear wheel selected? huge deal going
I thought of you Sunday, as I rolled through the corners on asphalt, then "walked the baby" on dirt roads on my Tiger 1050 balloon tired corner cripple. Luckily, no vintage Cdo's out and about to blow past and embarrass me. :lol:
hobot said:
I thought of you Sunday, as I rolled through the corners on asphalt, then "walked the baby" on dirt roads on my Tiger 1050 balloon tired corner cripple. Luckily, no vintage Cdo's out and about to blow past and embarrass me. :lol:
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Re: why was a 19" sized rear wheel selected? huge deal going
Concours I'm glad you and your balloon tire wonder had successful fun and wise enough to "walk" the poor unstable cycle when off secure pavement. Dirt is what motorcycle Heaven is covered with but Hell is full of THE Gravel. When Peel got her 2-1 long dong mega end blasted open and final front tri-link fitted by rural shop and warmed up playing with them on MX & trials bikes in wild raw condition, till faster and more confident than the poor chainsaws bouncing this way and that I took Peel off their 'trails' at good speed surprising deer and getting thrown down sideways from hidden stumps and rocks I hit hyw and came upon a parked group of dozens cycles of all types, all eye's on the Commando, I yelled out to em...
Who The Hot Shots here, I need to find pecking order of this old thing. Dozen of pilots all pointed to 3 locals on Ducati, Yamma R6 and Triumph Tiger Tripple... Not knowing Peel's pecking order yet nor the hwys there I let them lead, R6 simply could not keep up our accelerations so got left behind, the Ducati 9XXcc got too scared within 5 min-7-8 miles and turned back so just Peel and the Triple now on heated tires entering the really mean places was able to hang with him on his home commuting routes but had to go faster through turns as he could out accelerate Peel, mostly because Peel chain was too loose to would throw it off if WOT'd, for 30 min+, till Peel had only 4 gallon fuel left in IS tank, I pulled a phase 3 sideways wheelie out of last down hill sharpie before mile long straight into valley gas mass slapped Peels air borne front the opposite way to end up aimed almost 90' across hwy center ling at upper 50's mph instead of aligned with road but was able to panic stab front brake to low side a phase 4 hi side back in line in opposite lane and catch back up with the hard on it Triple. I could see no traffic ahead or would not of attempted what it took to hang with the handy pilot and Triple. This fella was one the few to get off on how fast Peel was instead of upset angry, so hi five slapped gloved hands when we parted ways and how good Peel was sank into me too. Peel had 120x18" Dunlop dual purpose hard compound tire, so have not found out what G's she could pull on real sport road tire.
What Peel wore
What my SvVee corner cripple wears out scaring me constantly to know not to even attempt Ms Peel's entry speeds, let alone exiting speed.
Concours I'm glad you and your balloon tire wonder had successful fun and wise enough to "walk" the poor unstable cycle when off secure pavement. Dirt is what motorcycle Heaven is covered with but Hell is full of THE Gravel. When Peel got her 2-1 long dong mega end blasted open and final front tri-link fitted by rural shop and warmed up playing with them on MX & trials bikes in wild raw condition, till faster and more confident than the poor chainsaws bouncing this way and that I took Peel off their 'trails' at good speed surprising deer and getting thrown down sideways from hidden stumps and rocks I hit hyw and came upon a parked group of dozens cycles of all types, all eye's on the Commando, I yelled out to em...
Who The Hot Shots here, I need to find pecking order of this old thing. Dozen of pilots all pointed to 3 locals on Ducati, Yamma R6 and Triumph Tiger Tripple... Not knowing Peel's pecking order yet nor the hwys there I let them lead, R6 simply could not keep up our accelerations so got left behind, the Ducati 9XXcc got too scared within 5 min-7-8 miles and turned back so just Peel and the Triple now on heated tires entering the really mean places was able to hang with him on his home commuting routes but had to go faster through turns as he could out accelerate Peel, mostly because Peel chain was too loose to would throw it off if WOT'd, for 30 min+, till Peel had only 4 gallon fuel left in IS tank, I pulled a phase 3 sideways wheelie out of last down hill sharpie before mile long straight into valley gas mass slapped Peels air borne front the opposite way to end up aimed almost 90' across hwy center ling at upper 50's mph instead of aligned with road but was able to panic stab front brake to low side a phase 4 hi side back in line in opposite lane and catch back up with the hard on it Triple. I could see no traffic ahead or would not of attempted what it took to hang with the handy pilot and Triple. This fella was one the few to get off on how fast Peel was instead of upset angry, so hi five slapped gloved hands when we parted ways and how good Peel was sank into me too. Peel had 120x18" Dunlop dual purpose hard compound tire, so have not found out what G's she could pull on real sport road tire.
What Peel wore
What my SvVee corner cripple wears out scaring me constantly to know not to even attempt Ms Peel's entry speeds, let alone exiting speed.
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Re: why was a 19" sized rear wheel selected? huge deal going
Interesting, I need a lesson in physics here.
Let us suppose that the weight of the rim/tire, between the 19" and the 18" wheels, is constant. Yes, as the diameter (actually the circumference) increases the speed of rotation decreases, but . . . what is the net consequence in terms of the gyro effect? All things constant, does not the gyro effect increase with diameter?
Yes, a wheel of smaller diameter at the same road speed as a larger diameter one, will spin faster, so it will, by that greater speed, store more energy. Yet, if the brake is applied at a constant point near the hub center, then the radius, the leverage, the torque, of that same weight traveling at a slower speed on that brake might be greater than it is for the smaller diameter wheel. Right? A lower weight with greater leverage can exert more torque, right?
X-file said:
Interesting, I need a lesson in physics here.
Let us suppose that the weight of the rim/tire, between the 19" and the 18" wheels, is constant. Yes, as the diameter (actually the circumference) increases the speed of rotation decreases, but . . . what is the net consequence in terms of the gyro effect? All things constant, does not the gyro effect increase with diameter?
Yes, a wheel of smaller diameter at the same road speed as a larger diameter one, will spin faster, so it will, by that greater speed, store more energy. Yet, if the brake is applied at a constant point near the hub center, then the radius, the leverage, the torque, of that same weight traveling at a slower speed on that brake might be greater than it is for the smaller diameter wheel. Right? A lower weight with greater leverage can exert more torque, right?
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Re: why was a 19" sized rear wheel selected? huge deal going
Yoose all got the basic wheel mass factors down, though might be blurring gyro and flywheel issue but w/o measures can't make judgements of what matters or not in such a close call difference. I swiched betwee 110 x 19 and 120 x 18 [~ 3/8" dia difference] on Peel in same after noons on same commutes and found the 120 was a tad more sluggish to throttle and fling - so apparently rubber mass of tire size is felt more than rim mass. Switched in both directions d/t flats to find going 120 to 110 turning out my drive way onto looser Gravel slope I'd almost loose it before recalibrating to lesser traction on leans. Felt similar on pavement liking 120 better - only if risking traction, but other wise just more to lug around. I know I don't like 17x150 and fater rears compared to 110 and 120 but do not know about 130 x18 yet and can't fit 140 in Peel d/t chain. Best is to buy a variety and use up this and that tire to settle on a favorite combo. Braking traction for real life riding is most important to me than corner grip so I'm biased to big front tire and soft compound.
Yoose all got the basic wheel mass factors down, though might be blurring gyro and flywheel issue but w/o measures can't make judgements of what matters or not in such a close call difference. I swiched betwee 110 x 19 and 120 x 18 [~ 3/8" dia difference] on Peel in same after noons on same commutes and found the 120 was a tad more sluggish to throttle and fling - so apparently rubber mass of tire size is felt more than rim mass. Switched in both directions d/t flats to find going 120 to 110 turning out my drive way onto looser Gravel slope I'd almost loose it before recalibrating to lesser traction on leans. Felt similar on pavement liking 120 better - only if risking traction, but other wise just more to lug around. I know I don't like 17x150 and fater rears compared to 110 and 120 but do not know about 130 x18 yet and can't fit 140 in Peel d/t chain. Best is to buy a variety and use up this and that tire to settle on a favorite combo. Braking traction for real life riding is most important to me than corner grip so I'm biased to big front tire and soft compound.
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Re: why was a 19" sized rear wheel selected? huge deal going
what-rides-t10987.html#p124118
is this the 'foot forward' cruiser?
hobot said:
84ok said:
what-rides-t10987.html#p124118
is this the 'foot forward' cruiser?
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Re: why was a 19" sized rear wheel selected? huge deal going
I use a 4 inch wide tyre on the back of the Seeley and I think THAT is too big.
84ok said:
I use a 4 inch wide tyre on the back of the Seeley and I think THAT is too big.
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Re: why was a 19" sized rear wheel selected? huge deal going
I know one thing off road rough riders on loose textured stuff do better on wheels with pretty narrow profile and 21" dia but don't work that great at hwy speeds so 19" is good compromise for early days of British unpaved paths and cobble stones plus normal hwy. i've tried my 17" on pasture and of course ever loving stinking Grit to swear off leaving beaten path on it w/o feet down a lot.
I know one thing off road rough riders on loose textured stuff do better on wheels with pretty narrow profile and 21" dia but don't work that great at hwy speeds so 19" is good compromise for early days of British unpaved paths and cobble stones plus normal hwy. i've tried my 17" on pasture and of course ever loving stinking Grit to swear off leaving beaten path on it w/o feet down a lot.
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Re: why was a 19" sized rear wheel selected? huge deal going
The ' aspect ratio ' Length to Breadth - of the Contact Patch , is somewhat different -= which gives different feedback & characteristics - if your being fussy .
Id think the ;load capacity of the 16 is significantly better ( load rating ) than the 19 . Used to be 23 in speedway fronts & 21 rears . for high A/R contact ,
so maybe the narrows better for sliding .
The ' aspect ratio ' Length to Breadth - of the Contact Patch , is somewhat different -= which gives different feedback & characteristics - if your being fussy .
Id think the ;load capacity of the 16 is significantly better ( load rating ) than the 19 . Used to be 23 in speedway fronts & 21 rears . for high A/R contact ,
so maybe the narrows better for sliding .
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Re: why was a 19" sized rear wheel selected? huge deal going
I don't know about narrower being exactly better for sliding as much as not as easy to slide as squattier size/profile tires. In other words taller OD tires grip better when the going gets tough/loose so can go faster harsher with more control. I was told that what works well off road hinders pavement handling but not if your frame allows loading to point pavement behaves like THE Gravel, then boy howdy I abhore the fatso race 17" as just can't take it like Peel likes it. One sense I get, 18/19" don't seem to trip out from under, low side as easy when sliding as 17" let down tires do. Bigger tires can stand more heat long is all as not much patch area difference. This is another factor Peel tri-links benefit don't have to hold long loads on tire edge, very fast jerky instansts are enough so most of longer turns are done hi throttle upright. Best wishes catching even a Combat accelerating upright vs 150 hp sportbike barely hooking up 40 hp leaned.
I don't know about narrower being exactly better for sliding as much as not as easy to slide as squattier size/profile tires. In other words taller OD tires grip better when the going gets tough/loose so can go faster harsher with more control. I was told that what works well off road hinders pavement handling but not if your frame allows loading to point pavement behaves like THE Gravel, then boy howdy I abhore the fatso race 17" as just can't take it like Peel likes it. One sense I get, 18/19" don't seem to trip out from under, low side as easy when sliding as 17" let down tires do. Bigger tires can stand more heat long is all as not much patch area difference. This is another factor Peel tri-links benefit don't have to hold long loads on tire edge, very fast jerky instansts are enough so most of longer turns are done hi throttle upright. Best wishes catching even a Combat accelerating upright vs 150 hp sportbike barely hooking up 40 hp leaned.
Re: why was a 19" sized rear wheel selected? huge deal going
Why 19"?? It was supposed to be a road bike for commuting and the roads were probably a bit rough back then so the accepted dia for the M/C industry was about 19" or more.. Bigger dia's smooths out the lumps and bumps in a straight line.. (as mentioned previously) and you are probably aware of.. It has subsequently been found that smaller dia tyres allows you to corner faster... Also the "chopper" era and racing influences make the change to smaller dia an "owners personal choice"..
If you want to go to 16" or whatever, do it if thats what you want.. All i would suggest is that you build a completely seperate wheel and keep your 19" standard wheel for when and if you want to revert back to 19".... Plenty out there will buy the 16"
Why 19"?? It was supposed to be a road bike for commuting and the roads were probably a bit rough back then so the accepted dia for the M/C industry was about 19" or more.. Bigger dia's smooths out the lumps and bumps in a straight line.. (as mentioned previously) and you are probably aware of.. It has subsequently been found that smaller dia tyres allows you to corner faster... Also the "chopper" era and racing influences make the change to smaller dia an "owners personal choice"..
If you want to go to 16" or whatever, do it if thats what you want.. All i would suggest is that you build a completely seperate wheel and keep your 19" standard wheel for when and if you want to revert back to 19".... Plenty out there will buy the 16"
Nater_Potater
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Re: why was a 19" sized rear wheel selected? huge deal going
btw, to help with the derailing that always seems to accompany these threads, here's proof from both Star Trek movies of just how far the little guy gets around;
I wonder if they had to get permission to do this?
Nathan
As long as the rolling diameters are the same, very little changes (within reason). I re-laced mine to an 18" years ago due to the lack of decent rubber for the back (K81's were all but gone). With the better tires available today in 19", I wish I'd kept my original wheel and raped a spare. Hindsight...olChris said:
btw, to help with the derailing that always seems to accompany these threads, here's proof from both Star Trek movies of just how far the little guy gets around;
I wonder if they had to get permission to do this?
Nathan
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Re: why was a 19" sized rear wheel selected? huge deal going
Hobot, 19" was the most universal Brit bike wheel rim size post 1950......I have to tell you we had (percentage wise tarmac to dirt) more tarmac than the US by that time.... :wink:
Growing up in the '50s I only went on dirt roads on the farm, on a tractor or in a Land Rover.....
Now, pre 1939 I think you will find a lot of wheel rims of over 19" in diameter.....
hobot said:
Hobot, 19" was the most universal Brit bike wheel rim size post 1950......I have to tell you we had (percentage wise tarmac to dirt) more tarmac than the US by that time.... :wink:
Growing up in the '50s I only went on dirt roads on the farm, on a tractor or in a Land Rover.....
Now, pre 1939 I think you will find a lot of wheel rims of over 19" in diameter.....
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Re: why was a 19" sized rear wheel selected? huge deal going
Chris, my UK experince over 40 odd years is that in the UK, where of course the bike was designed.....the roads are rougher today than they have ever been in my riding career due to constant under investment in road repairs.
I used to note rouger roads when I crossed the Channel...I still do, but when I travel in the opposite direction.....
These days as a road vehicle I run a Land Rover and avoid low profile tyres!
olChris said:
Chris, my UK experince over 40 odd years is that in the UK, where of course the bike was designed.....the roads are rougher today than they have ever been in my riding career due to constant under investment in road repairs.
I used to note rouger roads when I crossed the Channel...I still do, but when I travel in the opposite direction.....
These days as a road vehicle I run a Land Rover and avoid low profile tyres!
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Re: why was a 19" sized rear wheel selected? huge deal going
Ok so riders on English and European roads had it more civilized than Americans in the 19" wheel Golden Era, but maybe not when there were only peddle bicycles and horse wagons around on 26" and bigger rims, which first motorcycles adapted then reduced over decades to stronger shorter spoked wheels.
This is the most interesting mystery to me to show world a thing or 3 on Peel skinny meats. Its took a few months on my 1st Combat to run into THE Hinge following an 1100 that'd passed me in open as we entered a dike like 35 mph 290' 1/4 mile long sweeper at 80's mph, thot I was gonna dia young flung off a far down fall. Point being the 'chassis' let me down not tire behavior or traction. This is when deep Commando depression set in - used up money I could of had a really capable 17" motorcycle. A few days later found out how sluggish slow a Combat was on drag strip even folding tire up on torque that exploded R knee protecting the Combat. Few months later found used 2000 SV650 and started Norton tear down to learn mechanics and have oil tight Combat to be rid of at a loss. Got handy on SuVee on THE Gravel to point was flat tracking it somewhat and then could out ride the locals and visitors on 17" tires on hwy twistes but was too scared to break free not knowing what would happen or how long before re-grip, so called Kieth Code on special permission to get wild at one of his corner safety courses. Learned how to moderate spin so tire didn't melt to gobs like main instructor or wire brushed abraded away like Code did, just smeared out 1/16" wide thin tags off grooves. Saw Commandos like old peddle bicycles after that and swore off all 17" DOT legal tires too.
David Davenport, DynoDave, Bob Patton, Gerry Bristow, NOC, INOA and Brit Iron list crowd guided my Combat restoration over 5 yr and so blow up pensive and scared of it > took 1000 miles before I gave WOT but for break in wisdom. Still didn't want it so tried to break it and find its limits with my hard gained sense cycle handling by then. Pressed harsher and harsher till similar G's as the Ninja and SV, but nothing bad happened, hm. Pressed my life/luck pass anything prior but nothing bad happened except tunnel vision dimming breath taking G's till point i now abhor the 17" tires as too corner crippled on poor profile shape and too unstable wondering around on too wide patch, more like inflated inner tube towed behind ski boat than salaam ski rear edge.
Only reason for wide road tires is to absorb-spread heat of corner cripples engine power they can't hardly hook up much power on w/o spinning out of traction, aggravated by too rigid thinking of current frame designers. Peel is so much better she don't have to hold long heat loads on corners stuck in counter steering phase 2 handling -[though has to hold better in that phase than 17" race tires to get enough energy going to hit new handling phases], so don't need fat meats and can take full advantage of 18/19" rear slalom ski edge profile.
World had not caught up to Peel tri-linked capability in Phase Three and Phase Four straight steering handling on skinny tires but there is a Phase FIVE
level that interests me most now but could only do on THE Gravel d/t power lacking for tarmac use. There is nil leaning in P-5 handling nor any let off of forward hook up traction. Only places I've seen P-5 used is hill climbers and AWD 1000 hp rally cars and some hopped up go carts, so think the 16" rear meat may help explore than on next Peel. I know what I got in Ms Peel in spades already but she over rev'd before I joined this forum...
Ok so riders on English and European roads had it more civilized than Americans in the 19" wheel Golden Era, but maybe not when there were only peddle bicycles and horse wagons around on 26" and bigger rims, which first motorcycles adapted then reduced over decades to stronger shorter spoked wheels.
This is the most interesting mystery to me to show world a thing or 3 on Peel skinny meats. Its took a few months on my 1st Combat to run into THE Hinge following an 1100 that'd passed me in open as we entered a dike like 35 mph 290' 1/4 mile long sweeper at 80's mph, thot I was gonna dia young flung off a far down fall. Point being the 'chassis' let me down not tire behavior or traction. This is when deep Commando depression set in - used up money I could of had a really capable 17" motorcycle. A few days later found out how sluggish slow a Combat was on drag strip even folding tire up on torque that exploded R knee protecting the Combat. Few months later found used 2000 SV650 and started Norton tear down to learn mechanics and have oil tight Combat to be rid of at a loss. Got handy on SuVee on THE Gravel to point was flat tracking it somewhat and then could out ride the locals and visitors on 17" tires on hwy twistes but was too scared to break free not knowing what would happen or how long before re-grip, so called Kieth Code on special permission to get wild at one of his corner safety courses. Learned how to moderate spin so tire didn't melt to gobs like main instructor or wire brushed abraded away like Code did, just smeared out 1/16" wide thin tags off grooves. Saw Commandos like old peddle bicycles after that and swore off all 17" DOT legal tires too.
David Davenport, DynoDave, Bob Patton, Gerry Bristow, NOC, INOA and Brit Iron list crowd guided my Combat restoration over 5 yr and so blow up pensive and scared of it > took 1000 miles before I gave WOT but for break in wisdom. Still didn't want it so tried to break it and find its limits with my hard gained sense cycle handling by then. Pressed harsher and harsher till similar G's as the Ninja and SV, but nothing bad happened, hm. Pressed my life/luck pass anything prior but nothing bad happened except tunnel vision dimming breath taking G's till point i now abhor the 17" tires as too corner crippled on poor profile shape and too unstable wondering around on too wide patch, more like inflated inner tube towed behind ski boat than salaam ski rear edge.
Only reason for wide road tires is to absorb-spread heat of corner cripples engine power they can't hardly hook up much power on w/o spinning out of traction, aggravated by too rigid thinking of current frame designers. Peel is so much better she don't have to hold long heat loads on corners stuck in counter steering phase 2 handling -[though has to hold better in that phase than 17" race tires to get enough energy going to hit new handling phases], so don't need fat meats and can take full advantage of 18/19" rear slalom ski edge profile.
World had not caught up to Peel tri-linked capability in Phase Three and Phase Four straight steering handling on skinny tires but there is a Phase FIVE
level that interests me most now but could only do on THE Gravel d/t power lacking for tarmac use. There is nil leaning in P-5 handling nor any let off of forward hook up traction. Only places I've seen P-5 used is hill climbers and AWD 1000 hp rally cars and some hopped up go carts, so think the 16" rear meat may help explore than on next Peel. I know what I got in Ms Peel in spades already but she over rev'd before I joined this forum...
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