Why the 750 - 4 didn't handle as well as the Norton.

Hi all, obviously anyone reading this is a Norton fan, if not a Norton tragic. It is reasonable that we recognise if not eulogise the virtues of bikes. We recall past glories, ‘As old men, we remember with advantage those feats we once performed on our Nortons’ (apologies to Bill Shakespeare) and like football fans, we defend our chosen brand with tribal ferocity. However, no matter how fervently we try to convince ourselves that our brilliant bikes are ‘alive’, nurtured into life by the artisans of Andover, the sad fact remains that through malice, greed, neglect, shortsightedness, history and world economic circumstances they were absolutely outclassed by Honda and other Japanese manufacturers. I can hear the howls of rage arising from that outrageous statement. How can I say that they were ‘outclassed’, yet even as an avid Norton owner since my youth I stand by that statement. Of course Nortons are superior to Honda Fours in many ways but that fact wouldn’t have worried the captains of Honda one iota. They designed and built a fast, reliable, well equipped large bike at a competitive price. It captured both the imagination and sales choice of thousands of people who never would have dreamed of owning a Norton (or Triumph or BSA). People stopped and ogled a 750/4 who wouldn’t of given a Commando a second glance. Within half a decade Norton was in penury and Honda a household name. The fact that Honda engineers produced a bike that we in hindsight see as somewhat bland, a little indifferent in handling and lacking the finess of a well fettled Norton is irrelevant, they built a bike to be bought by the masses and some years down the track, they bought another. Even the term ‘well fettled’ so often used on Pommie bikes provides us with everything we need to know about their demise. Hondas didn’t need to be fettled, they just worked as designed straight out of the crate. So, what to make of this acerbic diatribe? We love our bikes, we know that they were actually faster and handled better than the big Honda. They possibly even provide more ‘smiles per mile’ with their stonking performance and featherweight handling, they are durable and long lasting in the long term even if unreliable, leaky and frustrating in the short term. They provide fertile ground for us few diehards to eulogise their virtues. We see their lines as minimalist, their engine classes as classic beauty despite the fact that in the early seventies most potential buyers just saw them as yesterday’s technology. But here’s the rub, no matter which way you look at it they are inferior their contemporary Japanese rivals in the way that counts, that is economic success. What we can say about our bikes is this; they are the ultimate expression of an old design, incrementally improved in a thousand ways by experts who had their hands tied. They were under the constraints of a management who refused to allow innovation and generational change, who, by parsimoniously holding the purse strings insisted that what was cutting edge half a century earlier was fit for purpose in the seventies. I could not conclude this rant without mentioning that Britain, whilst wallowing in archaic production methods, staved of a capital after the misfortune of winning two world wars was on the cutting edge of social change. As it had been so often before, it was leading the way on reforming society, providing social services undreamed of in other countries and being the harbinger of the modern western socially responsible society. Unfortunately, on the factory floor these noble causes were reduced to industrial unrest, strikes, distrust and massive inefficiencies. Just some random thoughts. Alan
I came across that Pic and thought it was funny, actually I thought It would be moved quick smart to the jokes a humor, don't take the heading too serious, I like Hondas too.But I think the brits have it over the jap bikes for spares, they have absolutely excelled in their spare parts and availability for their motorcycles
 
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They brought the product to market.
They had cultivated the market with inexpensive, fun, reliable small bikes, well supported by dealers.
That resulted in brand loyalty all companies envy.
"You meet the nicest people on a Honda" ad slogan.


On the flip side, I borrowed a '69 BSA Lightning for a day, the speedo spinning wildly like a Bermuda Triangle documentary movie was in sharp contrast to Nippon Seiki rock steady.
 
Hi all, obviously anyone reading this is a Norton fan, if not a Norton tragic. It is reasonable that we recognise if not eulogise the virtues of bikes. We recall past glories, ‘As old men, we remember with advantage those feats we once performed on our Nortons’ (apologies to Bill Shakespeare) and like football fans, we defend our chosen brand with tribal ferocity. However, no matter how fervently we try to convince ourselves that our brilliant bikes are ‘alive’, nurtured into life by the artisans of Andover, the sad fact remains that through malice, greed, neglect, shortsightedness, history and world economic circumstances they were absolutely outclassed by Honda and other Japanese manufacturers. I can hear the howls of rage arising from that outrageous statement. How can I say that they were ‘outclassed’, yet even as an avid Norton owner since my youth I stand by that statement. Of course Nortons are superior to Honda Fours in many ways but that fact wouldn’t have worried the captains of Honda one iota. They designed and built a fast, reliable, well equipped large bike at a competitive price. It captured both the imagination and sales choice of thousands of people who never would have dreamed of owning a Norton (or Triumph or BSA). People stopped and ogled a 750/4 who wouldn’t of given a Commando a second glance. Within half a decade Norton was in penury and Honda a household name. The fact that Honda engineers produced a bike that we in hindsight see as somewhat bland, a little indifferent in handling and lacking the finess of a well fettled Norton is irrelevant, they built a bike to be bought by the masses and some years down the track, they bought another. Even the term ‘well fettled’ so often used on Pommie bikes provides us with everything we need to know about their demise. Hondas didn’t need to be fettled, they just worked as designed straight out of the crate. So, what to make of this acerbic diatribe? We love our bikes, we know that they were actually faster and handled better than the big Honda. They possibly even provide more ‘smiles per mile’ with their stonking performance and featherweight handling, they are durable and long lasting in the long term even if unreliable, leaky and frustrating in the short term. They provide fertile ground for us few diehards to eulogise their virtues. We see their lines as minimalist, their engine classes as classic beauty despite the fact that in the early seventies most potential buyers just saw them as yesterday’s technology. But here’s the rub, no matter which way you look at it they are inferior their contemporary Japanese rivals in the way that counts, that is economic success. What we can say about our bikes is this; they are the ultimate expression of an old design, incrementally improved in a thousand ways by experts who had their hands tied. They were under the constraints of a management who refused to allow innovation and generational change, who, by parsimoniously holding the purse strings insisted that what was cutting edge half a century earlier was fit for purpose in the seventies. I could not conclude this rant without mentioning that Britain, whilst wallowing in archaic production methods, staved of a capital after the misfortune of winning two world wars was on the cutting edge of social change. As it had been so often before, it was leading the way on reforming society, providing social services undreamed of in other countries and being the harbinger of the modern western socially responsible society. Unfortunately, on the factory floor these noble causes were reduced to industrial unrest, strikes, distrust and massive inefficiencies. Just some random thoughts. Alan
That’s a good one! I came from Japanese stuff first (as most youngsters do) then moved to Brit space. Brits are the more lively bunch, but sad to say, If I’m leaving town for more than a day, it’s the CB750 all the way. Mines no show winner, pretty boring to ride and gets me there and back every time… the CB750 is the Swiss Army knife of bikes. It does everything well enough to keep up with the herd, but doesn’t really do anything exceptionally. Except never break down catastrophically. It does that pretty well 🤪
 
During my 8 years of club short circuit racing with my Norton in 4 stroke classes, I don’t recall ever racing against 750 4 cyl. Jap bikes. In those days it was generally accepted that unless one had all the expensive factory go faster bits they were uncompetitive against Norton 750s. The development of cheap and super powerful 16 valve engines along with better handling chassis changed all that of course.

I once caught up an H1 Mach III in an unlimited heat on my 500 Domi and it took a whole lap to get past and clear off because it was so dangerous trying to pass it. In the corners it was like a sub-atomic particle. I could tell it’s speed but it’s position could be anywhere on the track. On the straights it could out accelerate my Domi.
There’s a guy in our local vintage club that does kawi triples and you can’t beat him in a straight line. Move up to the mountains tho….
 
I came across that Pic and thought it was funny, actually I thought It would be moved quick smart to the jokes a humor, don't take the heading too serious, I like Hondas too.But I think the brits have it over the jap bikes for spares, they have absolutely excelled in their spare parts and availability for their motorcycles
When I bought my GTR1000 in 1986, the company had committed to keeping the same design for 10 years, in response to complaints of accessory/parts commonality complaints.
They did.
 
During my 8 years of club short circuit racing with my Norton in 4 stroke classes, I don’t recall ever racing against 750 4 cyl. Jap bikes. In those days it was generally accepted that unless one had all the expensive factory go faster bits they were uncompetitive against Norton 750s. The development of cheap and super powerful 16 valve engines along with better handling chassis changed all that of course.

I once caught up an H1 Mach III in an unlimited heat on my 500 Domi and it took a whole lap to get past and clear off because it was so dangerous trying to pass it. In the corners it was like a sub-atomic particle. I could tell it’s speed but it’s position could be anywhere on the track. On the straights it could out accelerate my Domi.
In the late 70's / early 80's, production racing in South Africa was very popular. The SOHC 750 Honda was not competitive against the other 3 big factories, so they were a rare sight. There were a few die-hards running Triumph twins and various Italian twins and the mighty Jota, and Bruce Verdon (now running TTI in NZ) on his rather non production standard 750 Norton.

In general, a non-Japanese win was unusual, partly due to the performance and partly due to the logistics backup that the big dealer teams had vs the one-man-band setup of the European makes. Bloody good racing though!

For concours - and my apologies for another severe thread drift!!
Future world champ Kork Ballington was a regular top placer on his 500 H1R (and a 750 at one point), but he found that road tyres - a TT100 rear and a Speedmaster front - gave better performance and faster lap times than the racing tyres he had been using. His theory was that the frame simply could not handle the extra grip, resulting in severe pattering, which vanished after changing to the road tyres. Eventually he went to a Seeley frame and race tyres when riding in Europe though.
 
In the late 70's / early 80's, production racing in South Africa was very popular. The SOHC 750 Honda was not competitive against the other 3 big factories, so they were a rare sight. There were a few die-hards running Triumph twins and various Italian twins and the mighty Jota, and Bruce Verdon (now running TTI in NZ) on his rather non production standard 750 Norton.

In general, a non-Japanese win was unusual, partly due to the performance and partly due to the logistics backup that the big dealer teams had vs the one-man-band setup of the European makes. Bloody good racing though!

For concours - and my apologies for another severe thread drift!!
Future world champ Kork Ballington was a regular top placer on his 500 H1R (and a 750 at one point), but he found that road tyres - a TT100 rear and a Speedmaster front - gave better performance and faster lap times than the racing tyres he had been using. His theory was that the frame simply could not handle the extra grip, resulting in severe pattering, which vanished after changing to the road tyres. Eventually he went to a Seeley frame and race tyres when riding in Europe though.
Thread was a guffaw to start with, Z50 with a Honda 500 stuffed in it. 😜🤡

I read that to be "drifting allowed".

Meanwhile, Nephew has stuffed a 600cc 4 cyl Yamaha into a golf cart....



Why the 750 - 4 didn't handle as well as the Norton.
 
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