Which Belt Drive?
- Thread starter SquareHead
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I changed out my 19-tooth to 20-tooth when I installed the RGM belt drive.
Very pleased with the change.
Only downside is you have to feather the clutch just a tad in first gear.
My understanding is that the belt drive also decreases the overall ratio by about half a tooth.
Very pleased with the change.
Only downside is you have to feather the clutch just a tad in first gear.
My understanding is that the belt drive also decreases the overall ratio by about half a tooth.
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- Apr 21, 2015
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- 322
Funny how no one has mentioned the systems made by QPD in the USA. The QPD web site is worth a visit and watch the Triumph electric start system being used.....a system QPD developed for the Triumph Co Op way back in the days of the factory sit in.Using I believe3 a new T140 smuggled out of the factory and sent to the USA.... Naturally the clever souls then in charge at Triumph used a crappy sprag arrangement and drove things through the timing chest just to prove how incompetent they were. And A friends comments are a lot worse than mine and he was very high up in the owners cflub at the time!!! I believe abortion was one word employed....
As for type of belt to use....Testing Ihas shown that trapizoidal toothform belts such as Synchroflex/Gates/ Megadyne AT10 10mm pitch belts are far more prone to ratchetting than are the 8mm pitch deeper toothform Uniroyal (now Gates) HTD belts. Ratchetting = jumping pulley teeth. The rotary Norton that won a TT way back in the 1990s employed a bog std off the shelf Gates 8mm pitch Polychain belt after trying a trapizoidal toothform AT10 belt system(at the 'suggestion' of a certain UK belt system maker) and having the belts fail very quickly during testing. I heard they failed before completing a lap of a local race circuit but that could be due to incorrect belt tension although when the gentleman told me I said and I quote 'Bet the teeth stripped' to which he replied 'How the hell do you know'?' to which I replied 'It is exactly what I would expect to happen due to overload unless you employed a rather wide belt'. The Gates Polychain belt, I WAS TOLD by the Gentleman that the same belt did not only the full TT but every other race that year which is what I would expect..... I was told belt width was 25mm but when measuring the one on the bike in the national museum it was 30mm wide. NOT THAT MANY NORTON OWNERS KNOW ABOUT A BELT BEING EMPLOYED ON THE ROTARY TT winning bike.......
Exactly why anyone would use a 40mm wide belt is beyond me and IF and I repeat IF I were to cobble a 500/650 system together it would employ a 25mm wide Gates GT3 belt and for a 750/820/920 a 30mm wide GT3 belt.
However we have employed 25mm wide Megadyne Silver belts on B50 scrambles etc lumps etc running on HTD toothform profile pulleys without problems.... TO DATE. BUT beware of buying non genuine belts, counterfiet belts have been available for many years.....some dealers probably love them as they give much greater profit.
As most Norton owners cover few miles these days owners reports are, in my view, pretty worthless. However a great kmany years ago (1982??) one American Gentleman wrote to me that his 820 Mk3 rather well tuned Commando had covered over 80,000 miles on the original Goodyear SuperTorque Pd belt supplied with his QPD belt system....I was doing a little investigation into belt systems in the 1980s.....Personally i would change belts every 25,000 miles as they are so cheap, well they are to me but I use a belt distributor rather than motor cycle dealers.
Once said to a very Senior belt Gentleman with decades of belt design, test and application experience ..something like ...based on your experience of belts what effect on belt life does incorrect belt tension have?? As is often the case over the years I have been picking his brain he replied 'Ah I can do better than that because we conducted testing on this subject many years ago...the results will be in deep hold store somewhere which I can probably find and send you a copy if you want but basically a correctly tensioned belt will have a life 3 to 4 times greater than that of an incorrectly tensioned belt'.Now go and learn how to CORRECTLY tension a belt and DO NOT listen to what the great many exspurts there are out there in Norton world tell you!! I have NO doubt that if you asked the same question of a chain expert they would give a similar reply adding that CORRECT lubrication is equally as important and that we old British bike owners do NOT lubricate our primary chains anything remotely like correctly!! (Correct would involve a sump and pump system spraying oil on to the inside of the side plates just before they hurtle round the clutch...as shown in any chain design manual).Ciorrectly employed the life of a Renold chain is 15,000 hours or at 40mph 600,000 milers which is a good indication of how INCORRECTLY we employ chain!! Mind you for a belt their design life is of the order 20,000 hours IF USED AS PER THE DESIGN MANUAL......
As for type of belt to use....Testing Ihas shown that trapizoidal toothform belts such as Synchroflex/Gates/ Megadyne AT10 10mm pitch belts are far more prone to ratchetting than are the 8mm pitch deeper toothform Uniroyal (now Gates) HTD belts. Ratchetting = jumping pulley teeth. The rotary Norton that won a TT way back in the 1990s employed a bog std off the shelf Gates 8mm pitch Polychain belt after trying a trapizoidal toothform AT10 belt system(at the 'suggestion' of a certain UK belt system maker) and having the belts fail very quickly during testing. I heard they failed before completing a lap of a local race circuit but that could be due to incorrect belt tension although when the gentleman told me I said and I quote 'Bet the teeth stripped' to which he replied 'How the hell do you know'?' to which I replied 'It is exactly what I would expect to happen due to overload unless you employed a rather wide belt'. The Gates Polychain belt, I WAS TOLD by the Gentleman that the same belt did not only the full TT but every other race that year which is what I would expect..... I was told belt width was 25mm but when measuring the one on the bike in the national museum it was 30mm wide. NOT THAT MANY NORTON OWNERS KNOW ABOUT A BELT BEING EMPLOYED ON THE ROTARY TT winning bike.......
Exactly why anyone would use a 40mm wide belt is beyond me and IF and I repeat IF I were to cobble a 500/650 system together it would employ a 25mm wide Gates GT3 belt and for a 750/820/920 a 30mm wide GT3 belt.
However we have employed 25mm wide Megadyne Silver belts on B50 scrambles etc lumps etc running on HTD toothform profile pulleys without problems.... TO DATE. BUT beware of buying non genuine belts, counterfiet belts have been available for many years.....some dealers probably love them as they give much greater profit.
As most Norton owners cover few miles these days owners reports are, in my view, pretty worthless. However a great kmany years ago (1982??) one American Gentleman wrote to me that his 820 Mk3 rather well tuned Commando had covered over 80,000 miles on the original Goodyear SuperTorque Pd belt supplied with his QPD belt system....I was doing a little investigation into belt systems in the 1980s.....Personally i would change belts every 25,000 miles as they are so cheap, well they are to me but I use a belt distributor rather than motor cycle dealers.
Once said to a very Senior belt Gentleman with decades of belt design, test and application experience ..something like ...based on your experience of belts what effect on belt life does incorrect belt tension have?? As is often the case over the years I have been picking his brain he replied 'Ah I can do better than that because we conducted testing on this subject many years ago...the results will be in deep hold store somewhere which I can probably find and send you a copy if you want but basically a correctly tensioned belt will have a life 3 to 4 times greater than that of an incorrectly tensioned belt'.Now go and learn how to CORRECTLY tension a belt and DO NOT listen to what the great many exspurts there are out there in Norton world tell you!! I have NO doubt that if you asked the same question of a chain expert they would give a similar reply adding that CORRECT lubrication is equally as important and that we old British bike owners do NOT lubricate our primary chains anything remotely like correctly!! (Correct would involve a sump and pump system spraying oil on to the inside of the side plates just before they hurtle round the clutch...as shown in any chain design manual).Ciorrectly employed the life of a Renold chain is 15,000 hours or at 40mph 600,000 milers which is a good indication of how INCORRECTLY we employ chain!! Mind you for a belt their design life is of the order 20,000 hours IF USED AS PER THE DESIGN MANUAL......
cNw
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- Apr 16, 2009
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Hey,
Since this thread is talking about available belt drives, I thought I better get in on it since we are close to having our available
While developing the cNw electric start conversion that also includes a belt drive, we quickly decided to offer that same belt drive (slightly different) as a stand alone unit for pre MkIII machines
The cNw belt drive will be unique in some respects compared to what is currently being offered on the market.
Highlights:
- Uses a 21 mm Poly Carbon belt made by Gates
- Clutch basket made from 6061 aluminum and sized so by adding 1 extra steel plate you will get the same result as our 'easy pull' clutch pack. 850 clutch will be recommended to use with drive
- Clutch basket has a machined in belt guard (outward) to keep belt in line
- A hardened clutch center is included
- Clutch basket is designed to accept std Norton clutch discs
- High capacity sealed clutch basket bearing
- Front sprocket is also a CNC machined 6061 aluminum part. We took a lot of time to ensure the internal taper was a perfect match to the crank taper to ensure that it will fit properly
- The only ratio initially offered will be the 32 front with a 70 rear. This being close to the ratio that the stock chain drive offers. This is the one that has been used on the full cNw build for 10 plus year with great results.
- Made in the USA by Special Tool Solutions for cNw exclusively
We are currently in the process of cutting all the parts for the electric start conversion and as soon as that is done, the front sprockets will be cut for the stand alone belt drives (different that the e-start version)
Price TBD but will be very competitive especially considering what is also inlcuded with ours. Check in on the website for updates on availability
Thanks
Matt / Colorado Norton Works
http://www.coloradonortonworks.com
Since this thread is talking about available belt drives, I thought I better get in on it since we are close to having our available
While developing the cNw electric start conversion that also includes a belt drive, we quickly decided to offer that same belt drive (slightly different) as a stand alone unit for pre MkIII machines
The cNw belt drive will be unique in some respects compared to what is currently being offered on the market.
Highlights:
- Uses a 21 mm Poly Carbon belt made by Gates
- Clutch basket made from 6061 aluminum and sized so by adding 1 extra steel plate you will get the same result as our 'easy pull' clutch pack. 850 clutch will be recommended to use with drive
- Clutch basket has a machined in belt guard (outward) to keep belt in line
- A hardened clutch center is included
- Clutch basket is designed to accept std Norton clutch discs
- High capacity sealed clutch basket bearing
- Front sprocket is also a CNC machined 6061 aluminum part. We took a lot of time to ensure the internal taper was a perfect match to the crank taper to ensure that it will fit properly
- The only ratio initially offered will be the 32 front with a 70 rear. This being close to the ratio that the stock chain drive offers. This is the one that has been used on the full cNw build for 10 plus year with great results.
- Made in the USA by Special Tool Solutions for cNw exclusively
We are currently in the process of cutting all the parts for the electric start conversion and as soon as that is done, the front sprockets will be cut for the stand alone belt drives (different that the e-start version)
Price TBD but will be very competitive especially considering what is also inlcuded with ours. Check in on the website for updates on availability
Thanks
Matt / Colorado Norton Works
http://www.coloradonortonworks.com
- Joined
- Oct 28, 2014
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- 1,872
In defense of the chain drive......I have found that Commandos run very well with the existing set up though they can certainly benefit from a belt drive. In my list of modifications the belt drive would be towards the bottom which allows the money to be put towards other things...if cash is a problem.
- Joined
- Jul 1, 2013
- Messages
- 464
One of the reasons the Merc duplex lasts so long apart from its design features
is that it is lighter than triplex and at high speeds this counts.
I actually like belts, on cars they work fine if you change at regular intervals.
As an aside leave a chain in the primary for a few years un-run and it will work fine
would a belt? As I have change by all means but change for a reason. I am selling
more and more chains for Harleys where owners want to go away from belts.
is that it is lighter than triplex and at high speeds this counts.
I actually like belts, on cars they work fine if you change at regular intervals.
As an aside leave a chain in the primary for a few years un-run and it will work fine
would a belt? As I have change by all means but change for a reason. I am selling
more and more chains for Harleys where owners want to go away from belts.
- Joined
- Jan 25, 2014
- Messages
- 507
I realize we getting way off original topic, but since original and follow-up questions appears to have been answered....
Andy - Why are Harley guys going to primary chains?
I have a 1983 shovel and just ordered a belt to replace original chain.
Based on many other owners on Harley forums being happy with the belt system.
And the experience of switching to a belt primary in my Commando has been very positive.
Andy - Why are Harley guys going to primary chains?
I have a 1983 shovel and just ordered a belt to replace original chain.
Based on many other owners on Harley forums being happy with the belt system.
And the experience of switching to a belt primary in my Commando has been very positive.
andychain said:
- Joined
- Jul 1, 2013
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- 464
On Harleys the rear belts are being replaced.
Original chain drives, usually Renolds, gave very life. The original triplex was a Renold and
even tho for technical reasons it is not ideal, as it was made to high quality it worked.
Some years ago triplex went out of fashion industrially and to keep the product in their range
most companies had it produced "out of house" cheaply and the quality went way down. Iwis
even stopped all together.
I was first made aware of primary problems from Laverdas over 10 years ago went riders changed
the original Renold or Regina for a modern version, and it did not last. Some even went to a 2 single
chain set up which in my humble opinion was not a good idea, although iwis do a rather special big
pin single that does work and has been used on race timing chains on some Commando to good effect.
The duplex from a Merc diesel has several good features that make it ideal but firstly was not around
when triple was being used and secondly the company would not supply and still wont in any lengths
other than Merc cam chain lengths.
Simply put standard duplex and triplex have slide fit centre plates which allows the thin pins, 3.31,
to flex, the Merc chain has press fit centre plates supporting the bigger pin, 4.41. The Merc chain
is also a bush chain.....no rollers, so no bits of roller in the housing. Finally the material is chromised
steel with a high quality of build in general.
In my humble opinion there are actually no current triplex chains that match the original products.
I actually dont mind belts but if you want to keep your classic bike as factory there is a way that
will allow you to ride it like you stole it.
As for costs there are many belts available ranging from a few pounds to hundreds.....Merc duplex
£55-60. There are many Commados running it yet the owners have yet come forward with any
feedback, hence my ref to Laverdas.
Strange my advice is tried and tested on the Commando rear over many countries with good
feedback yet on the most important drive. in my view, the primary I still have folks demanding
triplex even tho I tell them it is crap.
One more thing swopping to 520 is a joke there are a couple of good products out there and many
to avoid but the iwis M106SL, check for your local iwis agant in your country works well and is actually
lighter than most Jap 520s.
Next talk is to Cornwall VMCC in March, I am sure they will welcome visitors and those overdeas start saving
the airfare, either for you to come over here or to ship me over there.
Andy
Original chain drives, usually Renolds, gave very life. The original triplex was a Renold and
even tho for technical reasons it is not ideal, as it was made to high quality it worked.
Some years ago triplex went out of fashion industrially and to keep the product in their range
most companies had it produced "out of house" cheaply and the quality went way down. Iwis
even stopped all together.
I was first made aware of primary problems from Laverdas over 10 years ago went riders changed
the original Renold or Regina for a modern version, and it did not last. Some even went to a 2 single
chain set up which in my humble opinion was not a good idea, although iwis do a rather special big
pin single that does work and has been used on race timing chains on some Commando to good effect.
The duplex from a Merc diesel has several good features that make it ideal but firstly was not around
when triple was being used and secondly the company would not supply and still wont in any lengths
other than Merc cam chain lengths.
Simply put standard duplex and triplex have slide fit centre plates which allows the thin pins, 3.31,
to flex, the Merc chain has press fit centre plates supporting the bigger pin, 4.41. The Merc chain
is also a bush chain.....no rollers, so no bits of roller in the housing. Finally the material is chromised
steel with a high quality of build in general.
In my humble opinion there are actually no current triplex chains that match the original products.
I actually dont mind belts but if you want to keep your classic bike as factory there is a way that
will allow you to ride it like you stole it.
As for costs there are many belts available ranging from a few pounds to hundreds.....Merc duplex
£55-60. There are many Commados running it yet the owners have yet come forward with any
feedback, hence my ref to Laverdas.
Strange my advice is tried and tested on the Commando rear over many countries with good
feedback yet on the most important drive. in my view, the primary I still have folks demanding
triplex even tho I tell them it is crap.
One more thing swopping to 520 is a joke there are a couple of good products out there and many
to avoid but the iwis M106SL, check for your local iwis agant in your country works well and is actually
lighter than most Jap 520s.
Next talk is to Cornwall VMCC in March, I am sure they will welcome visitors and those overdeas start saving
the airfare, either for you to come over here or to ship me over there.
Andy
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- May 21, 2011
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Hi Andy, a bit off topic, but I see Iwis has a stainless steel chain line, they advert it for the food industry for baked good etc. drying conveyor ovens. I have no idea if they make the right configuration for a motorcycle application. Do you think a stainless chain would work in a motorcycle application? Just wondering - not so much for looks but not rusting in the drive chain. Might be a stupid question but that has never stopped me before.
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The weight savings of the belt drive is worth it alone.
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- Jan 12, 2011
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- 1,723
true, and the original reason I switched to a belt primary 15 years ago was, and this is an embarrassing reason, but I could not stop the damn primary from leaking
I got so sick and tired and it dribbling on my garage floor no matter what I did....
and was rewarded with no only no leaks but also a lighter, smoother feeling ...the first belt was replaced at 25,000 miles out of principle as it still looked pretty good
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- Oct 31, 2009
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I have had the RGM belt drive on for 5, maybe 6 years now and has run perfect and fault free. I would also have no problem trying the Maney unit either. Prices seem comparable.
The RGM system with the 20t counter shaft sprocket offers both great Highway and around the town running.
The RGM system with the 20t counter shaft sprocket offers both great Highway and around the town running.
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- Sep 18, 2014
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1up3down said:
My leaky primary is a pita... On the boot and on the floor. But alas with a MK3 a belt drive doesn't seem to be a viable or cost effective mod.
- Joined
- Jul 1, 2013
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- 464
Dont use stainless chain as it is soft. Nickel; plated is better as it does not rust. Stainless is
soft as it it used where magnetic picks are in operation and it does not last. Nickel was shunned
early doors as the chain was plated after assembly and flaked now it is, or should plated at
component stage with all dimensions reduced to allow for the thickness of plate.
The standard iwis 5/8 x 3/8 (M106SL) is a superb chain with chromised pins and is used
widely in classic racing. I use it on my 1200 Bandit which I ride like a lunatic, streetfightered
tricked up and yes I am a pensioner.
I have doing chains for 40 years and it annoys me that there is a huge amount of bullshit out
there, all I do is try to educate. Over the years chain has been made into a black art.....it aint.
It is metal bashing and the base material is key. Bits of rubber and fancy colours dont mean a thing
and there are plenty more crap notions forced on the owners of motorcycles, especially classic
motorcycles.
Going for a lie down now.
Andy
soft as it it used where magnetic picks are in operation and it does not last. Nickel was shunned
early doors as the chain was plated after assembly and flaked now it is, or should plated at
component stage with all dimensions reduced to allow for the thickness of plate.
The standard iwis 5/8 x 3/8 (M106SL) is a superb chain with chromised pins and is used
widely in classic racing. I use it on my 1200 Bandit which I ride like a lunatic, streetfightered
tricked up and yes I am a pensioner.
I have doing chains for 40 years and it annoys me that there is a huge amount of bullshit out
there, all I do is try to educate. Over the years chain has been made into a black art.....it aint.
It is metal bashing and the base material is key. Bits of rubber and fancy colours dont mean a thing
and there are plenty more crap notions forced on the owners of motorcycles, especially classic
motorcycles.
Going for a lie down now.
Andy
- Joined
- Nov 26, 2009
- Messages
- 3,086
J. M. Leadbeater said:
I have an ancient QPD belt drive. It's the first belt drive system ever developed for a Norton and mine is one of the earliest. Everyone told be it wouldn't work so of course I went ahead and MADE it work. Ken Canaga helped me out and I had the very 1st belt drive that worked successfully on the race track. It came as a trapezoid tooth but I converted it to round tooth and Goodyear made a custom Kevlar belt for me (since replaced of course). I also put a steel center on the engine sprocket. I'm assuming that they have developed and improved their current product. I raced with it and placed at a National with it in the early 1980s. Its on my street bike now after all these years.
This isn't a promo for QPD - I really don't know what they are up to now or how their stuff compares. But if someone wants to check them out they are at:
http://quietpowerdrive.com/QPDhtm/PrimaryBeltDrives.htm
Remember - this is the 1st belt drive ever made for English bikes.
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- Apr 15, 2009
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I've never heard of anyone successfully contact someone at QPD about any of their systems.
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- 1,872
If you own an Atlas or any bike with tin covers a dry belt drive is essential. After several years of fighting the twin boogeymen....oil leaks and adjusting the clutch often......I spent the money on a Heyward belt drive and many unending headaches..migrains...disappeared once and for all. The next leap foreward was installing a Magura Hymec clutch system. The bike is a pleasure to ride now.
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