Wheel mass report

Was reading a custom 1200 XR Sportster article with 17" carbon fibre rims and ceramic bearings with tubeless race tires and mount plates for brakes and sprockets but no brakes sprocket mounted. Front 15 lb range and rear 20ish.

I just weighed new Peel's set. w/o drilled axles or inner tubes inside.
Front 19" WM2 Excel heavy Al rim, 100/90 Avon, wave rotor installed = 24.5 lb.
Rear 18" WM3 Excel Al 130/80 Dunlop, wave rotor, 520 Al sprocket = 30.5 lb.
So 56 lb of Ms Peel is rolling stock. Any other comparisons?

On fifth rear rim tubeless sealing attempt I discovered the leak cause, levering on tire makes the bead on far side dig down into the valleys and lifts my silicon or fiber filled roofing tar blobs off their seats, seen by some RTV hanging to bead edge on depressing last inspection. Solution will be to cover blobs with something tough and light, but what?

Rotational motorcycle inertia ratio's engine vs tires
http://www.motorcyclejazz.com/crankshaf ... mentum.pdf

So the contribution to the total angular momentum of a motorcycle traveling in a straight line at 45 mph from an engine spinning at 5000 rpm is roughly 1/5 of what each wheel supplies. Note, however, that the front wheel itself supplies less than half of the total angular momentum of the entire system.

Click to expand...

Hobot,

You still have to use a rim band of sorts. A few turns of duct tape should do it while things are curing uphttp://photos.woodyswheelworks.com/al ... CN7421.jpg. I have no personal experience with this though so take it for what it's worth.
Personally if I was going for a tubeless spoke set-up I would think about getting Aprillia or BMW stlyle rims that have the nipples on the hub and attach to the rim on the outside edges.

Will

Hobot, In all of my experience, I think you are using the wrong products to seal the rim. I have contimplated this Idea myself. I would use Aircraft sealant, B-1/2

http://www.vansaircraft.com/cgi-bin/cat ... ct=proseal

They have a very reasonable price. You can get away with using very little. It is easy to prep, a little scotch brite, wipe with solvent and apply. I have used gallons of the stuff over the years, seals gas tanks, pressure vessels, as a fairing filler you name it.

I find Aircraft parts and supplies to be wonderful solutions to automotive marine and motorcycle problems.

Ugh, ugly weird rims don't fit Ms Peels quaint British image. Ttrying to avoid even the mass-mess of taping the valley and have read for years the off the shelf stuff just don't stay stuck in temps swings wheels can reach. Mt bicycle sites have special tapes in various types & widths made for rim use. May have to give in to tape, again, as already tired Al metal tape which conforms well but is very frail to nick, especially over a hollow nipple depression or raised goop hump.



I'm familiar with the two part epoxy type sealer being used by MX m/c race shops selling their processing to go tubeless. I've got more than enough left over from Caswell and IS fiber tank and Roadster steel tank jobs. Regular epoxy thinly applied tends to go brittle and fracture. I've resisted such permanent covering, what with all the people mentioning, what if ya need to tighten a spoke, but I got Peel's spokes as tight as they and wrench could take, all dialed in to similar tone on each row length, ain't going no where and epoxy would double trap em.
Will take both of your pointers deep to heart as need to get show on the road.

Front tire is where I want least mass and it sealed first time blue RTV only no tape as suggested by 'Guzzi owner club experience relayed to me on this forum. I think the roofing tar -butyl rubber, would do it too - if it was let to seal up stoney hard - in time. I've saw only two leaks last go but old race tire bead so torn up by prying it wil not inflate to seat bead with just 90 PSI from 2.5 gal tank.
May have to Hylomar it on next time to check spokes.

My reasons for tubeless in order of priority is, flat fix ease, safety of slow deflation, better braking acceleration, less to haul back on path and maybe some ease to hi side further. Going around faster is not expected to be noticed over steel tube wheels. If handling comes to mind - you just don't yet know what ya missing out on. But all report wheel mass is most noticed place to lose it so will see. Picking goop and tar out of 36 spots is meditative tedium Norton worshiping I've do until holds pressure.

Another thing I'm in pensive denial - bead clamps. At the level Peel should hit tire its could slip. Moderns some times 270', special texture rim to limit to 30-40'.
I'd much much prefer to screw and glue em on like a boat or cabinet. My P!! dragster had 3 of em, ugh the hassle and the mass, but I've had tire de rim on rear to save us over 50 mph > flat tracker no foot down by removing the stem stop in one freaked out motion then cascading down in cycles of tank slap. Peel may be the only cycle I could ever expect to do it on.

Hobot,

What pressures are you thinking of running? I wouldn't worry about tire slipping on the rim if you run normal road pressure. Problems arise when you run in the really low range,(off-road, trials, motocross psi), with grippy tires. The tube and tire slip tearing the stem and deflating. Those Excel rims can easily be drilled for a rim lock and often come pre-drilled. If you are going tubeless it is kind of a moot point as I see it.
There is a reason for Mags on my P11 :wink:

Will

While I was searching for my new wheel parts, I did stumble apon 2 or 3 companys that make seales spokes. The nipples are closed end with an O-ring under the face of the nipple. I have some old spoke seta laying around, I might experiment with.

Hobot , I can't offer any real specific data other than to say that the switch from the stock
cast aluminum boat anchors on my 96 Ducati SS street bike to approximately 10 ib lighter
magnesium Marchessinis made a noticeable difference . The switch to the even lighter BST
carbon fiber wheels on my SS track bike was even more pronounced . The Ducati SS chassis
geometry is biased more toward stability so it tends to be rather slow steering . The CF wheels
(roughly 13 lb lighter than stock) and relatively light Michelin tires made it much easier to effect
direction changes , especially at higher speeds such as a typical track high speed chicane .

I ride my Norton conservatively enough that with the narrower width tires , aluminum rims and the leverage afforded by the relatively wide bars it works well enough for me . I do enjoy reading
about your exploits pushing the envelope in this regard 8)

Ludwig the site did not open for me either. I'm been studying what's been done for years now so likely came across it already. My revelation was need to armor seals not from hard road conditions but from changing tires, ugh. Napa Red Automotive Goop was recommended from Brit Iron listee, so will get some and test a blob soon. I'm getting a bit tired of changing rear over size tire, so gravitating to the 2 part tank sealer I've on hand and either metal strap [mass+] or composite/polymer industrial strap I can melt-weld together.

OH Brother bewolf, have you ever stepped hard and ground heel on an exposed nerve on tire pressures and handling EVERYTHING. I can't discuss much about Ms Peel with rump rod and helpers w/o seeming to be a nut case and world ass braggart. Ms Peel is so beyond what been fielded so far she flys in orbits others can't handle or relate to on tire or chassis behavior. I don't yet know best tire pressure as only got better and better the higher I went - so far up to 56 front 58 rear, allowed Peel to begin to practice phase 5 handling on highway chicanes rather than just on THE Gravel. Normal PSI is like snow skis to Peel, HI PSI is like ice skates. Only reason I let air out again was the harsh ride over on THE Grit. Low PSI is like slalom water skiing on Ms Peel.

I would have experimented higher but Peel power punch dropped after 11,000+ stuck throttle evet, so had to back off testing to hands off body Slam English at 110 mph. It takes a lot of Slam to over come wheel inertial over the ton. I could not begin to practice this with a steering damper shooting bike in the forks. They must twitch as fast as the road passing to follow texture, until lifted out of their handling upsets.

Don't know how up on G shock handling of motor craft you are but w/o rubber tires modern suspension would beat chassis and passengers up to a pulp. Hi PSI is obnoxious on my cars and modern rigid mono shock SV650. Not so on Ms Peel.
I truly believe rods allow the isolastics to function also as road suspension and power pulse dampening. I hope to find out what rock hard inflation feels like on good pavement, likely only on race track as way too fast to survive the blind encounters that forced me to try the "nothing to lose" saving antics.

I have a bone to pick with Kieth Code who teaches front tire steers a bike at speed, I know better now and even he has comprised towards my camp too.
Front matters at slow speed low power planting, but that ain't where the real fun is for me and Peel. I tell you flat out if you depend on front to steer in harsh turns you are in dangerous state as I get flying over Gravel on hard tires. Beware!

Now about too low PSI, for a few years before I got Peel done and only had spiced up SV650 on non DOT race tires I'd see a squadron of Ducati Monsters flying around but either we'd be going other directions or they enter opens and leave wimpy 70hp/360 lb bike behind. Well one day on Peel in her prime after a hard rain had blasted pavement to fresh crystalline traction, to get to my driveway across a floating layer of sod on rising water supported layer of mud worse than quick sand, I had to let air out 18 rear 12 front and just barely made it across the few dozen yds by pure ballistic water skiing method terror. Got to pavement and headed for my village and air station 20 mile away. Half way there at intersection I saw approaching what I though might be the Monster Squad turn in behind me, hm, so I nailed it to over 120 and one of them pulled out to chase me on area that swirled in mostly level river valley. They could not catch Peel up to 90 mph though the 35 mph marked bends, I spread the gap from 1/10 to 1/4-1/2 mile, till I pulled up short behind a car in a 1/2 m long straight and waited so they could see what I was on. As soon as they pulled even they jerked up right in shock then nailed it out of there, I thought I was in 3rd as Peel was pulling so hard I only snicked to 3rd to pass car and chase but got a loud tinkle sound and hesitation to leap ahead, looked to see in 3rd so snicked 2nd and caught up by 1st turn seeing them about dragging a knee, while Peel was on deforming tires that wallowed and almost entered "hinged handling" so had to hold back in turns but hung right with em last 5 miles into viliage 70-90 mph of non banked sweepers. Small rider popped off helmet to reveal a lovely woman!

I asked her how hard she was pressing, said 80%, but I know that means just short of anal contracture. So Peel can equal famous brand ridden by track trained pilot on low sloppy air tires. I aired up f 28 - r 30 to stay in the games but she out ran Peel in the first open over 120 and tranny locked up in 4th, so came back home elated and deflated at same time. I had to go in clinic and pee by time I got back squad arrived and I saw nothing but butts and elbows of 10 pilots hidding Peel, all arguing where the turbocharger was hidden : ) I said ain't installed yet and they all involuntary recoiled/almost fell over on heels in shock! : )

if you really want to test bike handling try it with half low air and double PSI and get back to me. New Peel will not be out run in boring straights till who knows how fast. if you really want to learn to ride fast try it on low air as reveals faults to compensate for or be aware to avoid at survivable/recoverable rates.

Here's example of phase 5 handling sharpness, upright straight steering on spun tire. Boots sunk in a few inches per step so slushy loose layer. Like the snow runs rear tire weather-vaned down hill on it on for me to hang on or muddy splat.

Had my Mk3 rear wheel out anyway.
With 19" WM3 Akront non-shouldered rim, well worn Roadrider 100/90 , standard undrilled almost new disk, no shaft, no spacer, it weighs a whopping 14.7 kg, so 32.4 pounds.

http://www.motorcycle-superstore.com/2/ ... -Core.aspx

The link is to a product that turns tube tires into tubeless for spoked dirtbike wheels

I just found this, it is what I will be doing.

http://www.teamincomplete.com/Projects/ ... swhee.html

OH wow wow wow Tubliss is the cat's meow for what I seek, easy flat fix, a bit less mass but way more important to me is the Bead Lock feature!!! Genius!
Well worth $100 to me. I already wrote off the 1/2 thick goops as too much mass and still needing bead locker in 3 places. Of all the surfaces I most fear is MUD, any mud, thin mud thick mud, flowing summer storm mud to almost frozen winter Mud. Its always an instant crisis state to survive. If you don't know about mud then be glad until your first encounter at any speed. I lower air to mid-low teens at times to make it from shed to driveway hardness even if loose as marbles and arrow heads its predicable. Mud never is- ever! One end can be slung one way while other gripped tight then released just as other end grabs ugh I hate hate hate mud. So rim locks would save my day once arcoss Ms Peel's air station can harden em up on the spot. Hot diggity doggy doo no more trial error sealing tire labor for me.
Can air down for sprints too Yippee.