I think my front wheel is laced incorrectly......may need a new spoke kit?

I am always learning something when it comes to the rectification of this 73 850 Commando. Today I discovered that the front wheel may be laced incorrectly. Yesterday, I found out that when the brake caliper was moved to the left side, the front fender had to be installed backwards to clear. I never noticed it and I’ve had the bike since 1992 or so. Granted, it has been in the barn since 1996 but still…..

I am about to re-lace the wheel after polishing the bits and before I begin, I do a little web research for tips and I find this article :

http://vintagebikemagazine.com/technical-articles/lacing-norton-front-disc-rim-06-1951/

This is when I discover my wheel’s non disc side outside spokes are not where they should be. They are on the inside! Makes for a nice looking hub though. I think I should be able to install them correctly and bend them a bit but that may alter the length. My other thought was to buy a new set of spokes, but my wheel is an 18” Akront and I am having trouble locating a disc brake 18” set. Buchanan’s only list the 19” wheel set. I suppose I could call them but thought I’d ask here for options.

The photos below show the wheel as removed. The large bolt in the valve stem hole is for my visualization when re-lacing the wheel. The picture of the bike is from 1995 when I had done a bit of cosmetic work. It shows the front fender mounted backwards to clear the brake caliper. I had acquired the bike from the original owner’s woodshed with the caliper already in that location. It is only recently I realized it was originally intended to be on the right.

MCA said:

Today I discovered that the front wheel may be laced incorrectly. Yesterday, I found out that when the brake caliper was moved to the left side, the front fender had to be installed backwards to clear.

It shows the front fender mounted backwards to clear the brake caliper. I had acquired the bike from the original owner’s woodshed with the caliper already in that location. It is only recently I realized it was originally intended to be on the right.

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Yes, the fender is fitted backwards because the wheel assembly has been reversed and would have been on the right-hand side originally. For the 850 Mk3 with the brake on the left, the factory simply dispensed with the front stay so the fender remained in the original position.

MCA said:

This is when I discover my wheel’s non disc side outside spokes are not where they should be. They are on the inside! Makes for a nice looking hub though. I think I should be able to install them correctly and bend them a bit but that may alter the length. My other thought was to buy a new set of spokes, but my wheel is an 18” Akront and I am having trouble locating a disc brake 18” set. Buchanan’s only list the 19” wheel set. I suppose I could call them but thought I’d ask here for options.

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Yes, because the front wheel (and fork assembly) has been reversed, the spoke pattern is correct for a wheel with the brake on the right-hand side.

If you want to continue with the brake on the left-hand side then you could change it to the Mk3 spoke pattern but the change makes little difference, however, the spokes on the non-disc (lock ring) side of the hub have all been fitted as inners. Normally there would be 10 inners and 10 outers.

Thanks for the response. Although I am still confused as to the wheel lacing. Should I re-lace the wheel as it was or place the spokes in question on the outside of the hub?

MCA said:

Thanks for the response. Although I am still confused as to the wheel lacing. Should I re-lace the wheel as it was or place the spokes in question on the outside of the hub?

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Put the brake on the right and correct the 10 spokes. If you can't get them out, get the 10 proper spokes and cut the old ones out. No re-lacing required if the wheel is true now.

MCA said:

Although I am still confused as to the wheel lacing. Should I re-lace the wheel as it was or place the spokes in question on the outside of the hub?

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Personally, I would re-lace the wheel to the original factory pattern (for either left-hand or right-hand side brake) and because you are going to re-lace it anyway. Also, I would think 20 inner spokes probably clash close to the hub as they radiate in opposite directions although the 10 'outer' spokes should have longer and different angled heads.

marshg246 said:

Put the brake on the right and correct the 10 spokes. If you can't get them out, get the 10 proper spokes and cut the old ones out. No re-lacing required if the wheel is true now.

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Well that bring up another thought....I have already completed the front end rebuild and installed the forks as I found them...disc on the left side. The fender thing got me to thinking about putting the forks back to original or just leaving out the front fender brace. Just curious as to why the thing was moved over in the first place.....anyway I think I will re-lace the wheel as the article describes and ponder whether to move the disc back to the right while doing so since I have already unlaced and polished up the bits.

L.A.B. said:

Personally, I would re-lace the wheel to the original factory pattern (for either left-hand or right-hand side brake) and because you are going to re-lace it anyway. Also, I would think 20 inner spokes probably clash close to the hub as they radiate in opposite directions although the 10 'outer' spokes should have longer and different angled heads.

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I agree as I tried to mock it up with all those spokes on the inside as it was and it is devil's work to get them in place with the disc side inners as well. So thanks for the advice as I will certainly follow it.

MCA said:

Just curious as to why the thing was moved over in the first place.....

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Apparently, some Commando riders noticed their bike had a tendency to pull to the left.
Moving the brake to the left-hand side by reversing the wheel and fork assemblies apparently cured the problem and what the factory did on the 850 Mk3 but that required a different hub with a circlip bearing retainer instead of the previous threaded lockring that could potentially unscrew if the hub was reversed (and why your pre-Mk3 hub lockring has been punched to prevent it unscrewing) and change to the lacing pattern.

I think I misunderstood. I thought it was laced for a right-side brake but the 10 outers away from the rotor were in wrong and the rotor installed on the left. It that's not the case, then the only reasonable solution I see is what L.A.B said.

Mk3 (brake on the left) spoke pattern:

If there are 20 heavier gauge spokes then they go on the disc side. Also due to the considerable offset between the hub and rim, the rim must be oriented correctly so the spoke drillings align with the hub.

L.A.B. said:

Mk3 (brake on the left) spoke pattern:

If there are 20 heavier gauge spokes then they go on the disc side. Also due to the considerable offset between the hub and rim, the rim must be oriented correctly so the spoke drillings align with the hub.

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Thank you for the photo. All spokes are 8 gauge stainless and the 18" Akront rim is drilled on the center line so it appears it is not "handed". My challenge will be getting a new set of 18" disc brake spokes or dealing with the ones as they were originally installed.

MCA said:

All spokes are 8 gauge stainless and the 18" Akront rim is drilled on the center line so it appears it is not "handed".

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I would urge you to check again as it's not the position but the angle of the drillings that makes the rim "handed". The disc-side spokes sit almost perpendicular between the rim and hub but the non-disc spokes do not so the spoke drillings should be angled more to one side of the rim which will be the non-disc side.

L.A.B. said:

I would urge you to check again as it's not the position but the angle of the drillings that makes the rim "handed". The disc-side spokes sit almost perpendicular between the rim and hub but the non-disc spokes do not so the spoke drillings should be angled more to one side of the rim which will be the non-disc side.

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I am honestly not seeing any angle difference with the rim flipped either way but I did mark the rim as to the disc side before disassembly. I laid the first 10 disc side spokes in the Akront 18" rim turned disc side down as the hub was disc side down and then removed them and flipped the rim and re-laid the first 10 spokes again. While you do have to start the sequence in a different hole location, I could not see any angle difference . Since I did mark the rim, I will install it as it came apart. I am basing my start location for the disc side inner spokes based on the spoke sequence shown below.


By the way, I did have the rim blocked up to the correct offset before laying in any spokes. As I said, I did mark it before disassembly and will proceed that way when I re-assemble. This is my first Norton front wheel but I have done my Triumphs and BSA's successfully fwiw. Hopefully, I am not dimwitted regarding this but it's been known to happen.

I must be missing something. As you (OP) found it, it appears from the photo that the wheel is laced in such a way that the spoke angles with respect to the rim holes are correct. Someone went to a lot of trouble to move the disc to the left side and it appears they did a good job, with the possible exception of not buying a MKIII fender with no front stays.

Granted, you have disassembled and polished the pieces and have the opportunity to return it to factory condition but why? You say it has all 8-gage spokes so spoke loading on the disc side is not an issue, moving the disc to the left cured a known problem and is what the factory did, it looks good using the existing spokes as laced, and most of all, changing it back to the right-hand side will be a lot of trouble and may include buying a new 19" rim if you can't get the spokes you want for the 18" rim (I can't imagine that as Buchanan's will cut you anything you want, just pay the money).

I've never ridden a commando with an 18" front wheel so I can't comment on the handling. Was that change made as a handling upgrade when the rear was changed to 18" (if it was)? I don't know but I wouldn't change it back to the right without some compelling reason. The staked bearing retainer doesn't seem compelling to me but I was just a dealer line-mechanic, not a racer, so much of this is above my pay grade.

Thomasa said:

I must be missing something. As you (OP) found it, it appears from the photo that the wheel is laced in such a way that the spoke angles with respect to the rim holes are correct. Someone went to a lot of trouble to move the disc to the left side and it appears they did a good job, with the possible exception of not buying a MKIII fender with no front stays.

Granted, you have disassembled and polished the pieces and have the opportunity to return it to factory condition but why? You say it has all 8-gage spokes so spoke loading on the disc side is not an issue, moving the disc to the left cured a known problem and is what the factory did, it looks good using the existing spokes as laced, and most of all, changing it back to the right-hand side will be a lot of trouble and may include buying a new 19" rim if you can't get the spokes you want for the 18" rim (I can't imagine that as Buchanan's will cut you anything you want, just pay the money).

I've never ridden a commando with an 18" front wheel so I can't comment on the handling. Was that change made as a handling upgrade when the rear was changed to 18" (if it was)? I don't know but I wouldn't change it back to the right without some compelling reason. The staked bearing retainer doesn't seem compelling to me but I was just a dealer line-mechanic, not a racer, so much of this is above my pay grade.

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No, you are not missing anything and I thank you for your perspective. This is all born from my ignorance of all things Commando. I noticed my wheel was laced differently than stock and not knowing anything about the subject, I asked here for information. I also wondered about the right to left disc swap. So the bottom line is this is a learning experience for me. I now understand that the wheel can be laced as factory and used either way with the disc or I can use it as I found it. I also now have a bit of understanding why the disc was swapped in the first place. I dont have an opinion either way and will probably leave well enough alone.

My issue with the lacing is that the factory lacing seems much easier with inside, outside sets than trying to set 30 inside spokes (20 on the disc side and 10 on the non disc side) and only 10 outside spokes. If a 18" disc spoke kit is available, I would probably be inclined to use it and lace the wheel as factory and still keep everything else as found. I am currently waiting on new spoke nipples so the opportunity to learn from this forum presented itself.

As far as the original wheel change goes, the bike has 18" wheels front and back and rode on Dunlop 4.10 x 18 K81's. The original owner took the bike to HP International for a 940 kit install and they also did the brake and wheel change at that time. That's about all I know. As far as handling goes, I never gave it any thought while I had it on the road as it ran great and rode well.

Again, I appreciate your perspective as it helps me make a decision and also all the forum members that let me know that nothing is wrong but just different.

mike

It's difficult (for me?) to describe and not all that easy to get a picture showing just how much the hub flanges are offset toward the non-disc side in relation to the rim...


...and you could well be right that there's no apparent bias in the rim drilling angles which unfortunately leads to another possibility that this particular 18" alloy rim wasn't drilled for a Commando disc wheel at all but for a completely different bike and might explain why all the non-disc-side spokes were fitted as 'inners'.

Thomasa said:

it appears from the photo that the wheel is laced in such a way that the spoke angles with respect to the rim holes are correct.

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Correct factory lacing for a wheel for a disc on the right-hand side.
The non-disc side spokes all being inners, however, is in no way "factory original".

Thomasa said:

Someone went to a lot of trouble to move the disc to the left side and it appears they did a good job,

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It's beginning to look to me more like someone could have gone to the trouble to fit an incorrectly drilled rim if the drillings do not bias the spokes over to one particular side (the non-disc side).

Thomasa said:

it looks good using the existing spokes as laced, and most of all, changing it back to the right-hand side will be a lot of trouble and may include buying a new 19" rim if you can't get the spokes you want for the 18" rim

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It isn't the spokes that are the problem, it's the rim.
When the factory changed the original 19" spoke pattern to suit the left-hand Mk3 disc they used the same sets of spokes as before but changed the spoke pattern to suit the L/H disc position and initially used the same MC275 rim but reversed it.

Thomasa said:

The staked bearing retainer doesn't seem compelling to me but I was just a dealer line-mechanic, not a racer, so much of this is above my pay grade.

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Lockring threads are normally either R/H or L/H threaded according to which side of the hub/wheel they are on to prevent the possibility of the lockring loosening due to wheel rotation (so normally R/H thread on the left-hand side and L/H thread on the right-hand side).
If the wheel is reversed the lockring thread is then wrong-handed.

L.A.B. said:

It's difficult (for me?) to describe and not all that easy to get a picture showing just how much the hub flanges are offset toward the non-disc side in relation to the rim...


...and you could well be right that there's no apparent bias in the rim drilling angles which unfortunately leads to another possibility that this particular 18" alloy rim wasn't drilled for a Commando disc wheel at all but for a completely different bike and might explain why all the non-disc-side spokes were fitted as 'inners'.

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Yes, I'm aware of that offset as I examined and photographed the wheel at numerous angles before disassembly. After digesting all the information you have presented to me. I do believe you are correct in that those spokes were laced as inners to get a proper angle and to achieve the correct offset. I recall it measured at .56" from the disc flange to the rim.

From what I gather here, it may be best to just re-assemble as found as the bike had no handling issues. Also regarding the term "handed", in my mind I was thinking about the 1 x 3 drill pattern I've seen as this wheel does not exhibit that.

Thanks for the education. It would have been much easier if this thing just had stock 19" wheels but just not as interesting.

MCA said:

Also regarding the term "handed", in my mind I was thinking about the 1 x 3 drill pattern I've seen as this wheel does not exhibit that.

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Yes, the 1 x 3 dimple pattern was CWC's (Central Wheel Components) invention because the stock disc front rims were 1 x 1 pattern but unfortunately, John Healy (author of the VintageBike article in your link) fails to mention it.

This post by Dynodave has a drawing of the correct spoke angles as per factory 19" rim.




It references Central Wheel as using the same pattern but from experience they do not stick to the same spec and vary it to give themselves an easier life hence the John Healy article with non factory dimple pattern.