Wet Sumping - maybe an easy solution ?

petejohno · Jan 20, 2016

Some time ago I purchased the oil filter adaptor from CNW so that I can fit a more common oil filter to my MK111. My Norton will wet sump after a couple of days sitting - not that I consider this to be a problem that some people do.
Some of the filters Matt recommends are not available in AUS but I found an equivalent to the FRAM PH3614 he recommends which is a RYCO Z87A. This filter has an anti-drain valve built into the filter. It is also slightly longer than the original, but more capacity has to be a good thing. After an oil change to Penrite 50W - It's bloody hot over here at the moment - I have let the bike sit for 4 days and low and behold, no wet sumping !
Time will tell if it remains that way, but if it does, this may be a better and much safer solution than some of the ideas I have read here.
I'm not sure if these filters are available everywhere, but it may be worth a try.

johno

htown16 · Jan 20, 2016

The filter is in the return line. Can't wet sump through the return as it goes to the top of the oil tank, except for what little is in the line. Maybe it's the straight 50W you are using, sounds like you switched to that at the same time. Not flowing as readily through the clearances on the pump at non operating temperatures.

L.A.B. · Jan 20, 2016

petejohno said:
Some of the filters Matt recommends are not available in AUS but I found an equivalent to the FRAM PH3614 he recommends which is a RYCO Z87A. This filter has an anti-drain valve built into the filter. It is also slightly longer than the original, but more capacity has to be a good thing. After an oil change to Penrite 50W - It's bloody hot over here at the moment - I have let the bike sit for 4 days and low and behold, no wet sumping !

But....the normal Commando spin-on oil filter is on the return side? Oil that "wetsumps" drains through the feed.

petejohno · Jan 20, 2016

I have changed from 10W/ 50 to straight 50W although it has wet sumped previously with multigrade 40W/70. I understand the filter on the return line, just seems strange that the wet sumping appears to have stopped.

johno

worntorn · Jan 20, 2016

Two days for wet sumping is one heck of a leak somewhere, even for a pre MK3 bike. The MK3 with it's built in antidrain check valve will hold it's oil in the tank for a couple of months or so if all is well.
Two days for a full sump would be rather annoying.
Maybe the pump needs a see-to?

Glen

petejohno · Jan 20, 2016

Thanks for the info gents. I just thought I would mention my experience after changing the filter. But as I said before, I'm not concerned about wet sumping - I've never heard of it damaging anything and some of the solutions I've heard here - like ball valves in the feed line - are just downright dangerous. In fact my Rickman Honda CR750 wet sumps as well and it pumps back to the tank in a minute or so. My only bike that doesn't is a '68 Triumph Daytona !

johno

Tintin · Jan 21, 2016

petejohno said:
This filter has an anti-drain valve built into the filter.

I doubt that. Usually there is a pressure release valve but not a check valve (aka non-return valve). The function of the PRV is to ensure a bypass and thus oil flow should the pressure drop across the filter become to high (cold oil, clogged-up filter ....)

Tim

L.A.B. · Jan 21, 2016

Tintin said:
petejohno said:

This filter has an anti-drain valve built into the filter.

Click to expand...

I doubt that. Usually there is a pressure release valve but not a check valve (aka non-return valve).

Spin-on filters often have an anti-drain back valve so I don't know why you would doubt it unless you have some personal experience of this particular filter?

http://motorcycleinfo.calsci.com/Filters.html

http://www.rycofilters.com.au/products/faqs

http://www.rycofilters.com.au/library/n ... l_out1.pdf

Tintin · Jan 21, 2016

L.A.B. said:
Spin-on filters often have an anti-drain back valve so I don't know why you would doubt it unless you have some personal experience of this particular filter?

Spin-on filters often have PRVs and some have NRVs, yes. However even if I don't have any personal experience with
this particular filter I'm still able to interpret a picture and this one explains a bypass and not a NRV....

Tim

L.A.B. · Jan 21, 2016

Tintin said:
L.A.B. said:

Spin-on filters often have an anti-drain back valve so I don't know why you would doubt it unless you have some personal experience of this particular filter?

Click to expand...

Spin-on filters often have PRVs and some have NRVs, yes. However even if I don't have any personal experience with
this particular filter I'm still able to interpret a picture and this one explains a bypass and not a NRV....

If you were able to interpret the picture then you would see the anti-drain back valve (it's red).
http://motorcycleinfo.calsci.com/Filters.html

Finally, some oil filters come with an anti- drain back valve. This is not necessary in a filter which is mounted vertically, with the opening pointed up. However, most motorcycles mount their filters horizontally, so this is very important to us. This is typically a piece of nitrile or silicon rubber which blocks off the filter oil inlets unless there is positive pressure into the filter.

The pressure release or bypass valve can be plainly seen at the outer end of the filter:

http://www.aa1car.com/library/oil_filters.htm

acotrel · Jan 21, 2016

If the filter is in the supply line, how does the oil get past the anti-drain valve to feed into the engine ? If the filter is in the return line, surely all the anti-drain valve does is stop what is in the oil line and any oil cooler from returning to the pump when the engine is stopped ?

L.A.B. · Jan 21, 2016

acotrel said:
If the filter is in the supply line, how does the oil get past the anti-drain valve to feed into the engine?

Under normal circumstances, a spin-on filter filter would be situated between the pump and engine, so oil pressure opens the valve, same as the MkIII timing cover ADV.

Fitting a spin-on filter with an anti-drain back valve ahead of the pump could cause problems just like any other type of automatic anti-drain valve on the feed line as it would rely on pump vacuum to open, also, the 'drain' flow direction will be the same as the feed flow.

worntorn · Jan 21, 2016

petejohno said:
Thanks for the info gents. I just thought I would mention my experience after changing the filter. But as I said before, I'm not concerned about wet sumping - I've never heard of it damaging anything ....

johno

I did manage to blow the mainseal on my MK 3 by running it with a very full sump. Rode away a bit too soon and let the revs climb to about 3500 or so.
Other than that, the damage caused by burning oil in the top end is kind of slow and insidious. Five minutes of running with clouds of smoke exiting the pipe probably equals several thousand miles of carbon deposits at normal operation.
It really cokes up the valves and the combustion chambers.
Having said that, my MK 3 never seems to produce smoke when run with a full crankcase, however the 650 SS sure does.
After the blown seal on the MK3 I take no chances and drain the crankcase before starting if the bike has been laid up all winter.
The 650 was annoying enough that it got one of those ball valves you mention, however it has a foolproof safety interlock that I'm happy with.

Glen

J. M. Leadbeater · Jan 21, 2016

IF and I repeat IF memory is correct at one time someone in the Matchless Club manufactured oil valves that also incorporated a switch that was wired in to the ignition system ensuring the motor could not be started with the engine oil supply turned off.......
Tis about time some enterprising soul wanting to make a few bob came up with a decent fool proof one.

worntorn · Jan 21, 2016

J. M. Leadbeater said:
IF and I repeat IF memory is correct at one time someone in the Matchless Club manufactured oil valves that also incorporated a switch that was wired in to the ignition system ensuring the motor could not be started with the engine oil supply turned off.......
Tis about time some enterprising soul wanting to make a few bob came up with a decent fool proof one.

I've come up with a good simple one and would like to make a few bob but unfortunately I'm not very enterprising these days

Glen

Craig · Jan 21, 2016

Mr. Leadbeater ... the idea of a switched fail-safe anti-drain oil valve has been done several times and been discussed on this forum at length ... run a search and see for yourself ...
Craig

Bernhard · Jan 23, 2016

petejohno said:
like ball valves in the feed line - are just downright dangerous.

johno

So, ALL the 500, and 350 Velos made from around 1960 which had those anti wet sump ball valves are dangerous are they :?:
Heck I have even seen a Dominator fitted with a Velo oil tank with this valve fitted, the owner said it worked a treat, also it provided him with an oil filter in the tank :!:

fiatfan · Jan 23, 2016

I can´t help being somewhat amazed over this, in my mind, strange issue... I drove my Norton for 10 years the first time I owned it, never had an issue with the "wet sumping", didn´t even know it existed! Spoke to a friend who also had a Commando back in the day, and mentioned the attention this has got today, and he just starred at me, wondering what the h-- I was on about? Is this really such a big issue? If you have your oil pump in good order, it has to be ok, or :? :?:
Tommy

worntorn · Jan 23, 2016

It might be worse for those of us who at some point in life have owned a Japanese motorcycle.

Glen

texasSlick · Jan 23, 2016

worntorn said:
It might be worse for those of us who at some point in life have owned a Japanese motorcycle.

Glen

Even worse than that .... is to have a Japanese, or HD guy standing by when you crank up and have clouds of blue smoke come out of your Norton.

The best solution is the AMR timing cover and oil pump modification. For $70 plus two way shipping, wet sumping is gone. I had it done .... my Atlas has been sitting for 7 weeks now with fresh oil, waiting for a warm day to crank it up. I made a dipstick with marks for full and 1 qt low. After 7 weeks, the oil is right on the full mark .... no detectable drop in level.

Slick

PS ..... Worntorn has a nifty anti wet sump valve. Anyone who insists on going that route would do well to convince him to make you one for a Bob or quid, or two.

Wet Sumping - maybe an easy solution ?

petejohno

htown16

L.A.B.

Moderator

petejohno

worntorn

petejohno

Tintin

L.A.B.

Moderator

Tintin

L.A.B.

Moderator

acotrel

L.A.B.

Moderator

worntorn

J. M. Leadbeater

worntorn

Craig

Bernhard

fiatfan

worntorn

texasSlick

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