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Wet Sumping. An effective repair. (2015)

Discussion in 'Norton Commando Motorcycles (Classic)' started by kerinorton, Jul 27, 2015.

  1. kerinorton

    kerinorton

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2013
    I recently rebuilt my 850 engine which used to drain nearly all the oil from the tank in a week. Part of the rebuild was to reduce the end float on the oil pump gears. Since the rebuild, I rode the bike once before going on holiday. 3 weeks later, the full tank had only gone down to the lower mark on the dipstick. Bike started up ok and didn't smoke. I did another 50 k ride and the oil level was at the top dip stick mark when I got back. I had installed a manual shut off valve in the supply line coupled with a micro switch to prevent starting when the valve was off. Looks like so long as I ride once a month, then that valve will never be needed again.

    I can only recommend guys with wet sumping problems to remove the oil pump and using wet and dry and a granite block, to rub the sides of the pump down to get closer clearances on the gears. Takes some time and effort but looks like it is worth it. My 14,000 mile 750 only wet sumps if you leave it for a year.

    Dereck
     
  2. hobot

    hobot

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2005
    Glad to hear of almost non weep oil pump but realize you lucked out as there are like 6 paths to leak through oil pump and facing the pump flats is routine common to do but does not always stifle the drool much better. Thank goodness only a few cases of bad crank seals revealed by wet sump starts compared to some expensive failed crank seal insurance devices. Best of ongoing luck.
     
  3. DogT

    DogT VIP MEMBER

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2009
    I'm glad it worked for you. After doing that on mine, it added maybe a week, so total of 4 weeks to drain the oil tank, and that was with the SAE50, I'm not counting on the V-Twin 20W40 to do much more than 1 week. I still use the manual valve and micro-switch.
     
  4. worntorn

    worntorn

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2006
    Please excuse the non Norton content here, but I installed the valve intended for the 650SS on my Vincent Project bike as it has turned out to be a 2 week wet sumper.
    With the valve installed, end of problem of course and the ignition key only gets released when the oil is on, so it is completely safe. My only other key is taped to the bike in a hidden location.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
  5. htown16

    htown16

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2009
    The AMR mod is working well for me.
     
  6. JimNH

    JimNH

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2014
    That ain't no ordinary Vincent. How about a picture of the whole bike.
     
  7. worntorn

    worntorn

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2006
    iiRe: Wet Sumping. An effective repair.

    I probably shouldn't post too many non Commando photos here, so instead here is the link to the build of the first version which temporarily used the engine from my Rapide-

    project-t11902.html

    And here is the build of the hotrod engine that is in it now

    vincent-1360-t19100.html

    At $70 the AMR mod is definitely worth trying. I recall Matt at CNW said it worked for them on about half of the bikes.

    Glen
     
  8. boz

    boz

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2007
    Drain oil from crankcase into a clean pan. Pour oil back into oil tank. Ride. Simple and effective. The more you ride the less times you have to do it. The less you ride just plan ahead.
     
  9. worntorn

    worntorn

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2006
    Try that with ten bikes.
     
  10. hobot

    hobot

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2005
    Come on baz when did plain ole common sense enter into risky motorcycle hobby, especially obsolete kind, sheeze. Also unless seasoned enough on your own or years of discussions one tends to think Norton is normal machine that all parts fit the same and last a while so simple effective solution for one Commando will apply to anyone else. I am sure most the vulnerable anti-sump devices have not yet failed in majority of them but also realize the vast majority of Commando owners are not online to report their sorrows and joys. Of course wet sump is a non issue in Commando with factory Combat breather or set to mimic them with a flapper valve placement. To me a simple drain plug in TS case to set correct oil splash level into catch bottle would be easier than the sump plug access which drains too much oil out in my humble opinion. Of course what matters most is what type oil being collected.
     
  11. zotz

    zotz

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2007
    I run an XS650 breather which creates a negative pressure in the engine. I'm curious as to whether that would aggravate a tendency to wet sump by sucking oil into the engine until the pressure equalizes.
     
  12. boz

    boz

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2007
    I to have 10 bikes.
     
  13. kerinorton

    kerinorton

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2013
    Once the engine stops, the crank case pressure will equalize with atmospheric pressure as the valves are usually in the open position when no air is flowing. Stationary rings will also pass some air.

    Dereck
     
  14. worntorn

    worntorn

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2006
    OK try it with twenty. :mrgreen:

    I don't have ten that wet sump but enough do and I can't seem to keep ahead of it by riding, even though I ride a fair bit.
    I've done the drain and refill for many years, then finally got sick of it and all the associated mess/incontinence. To each his own, but there is another way that is perfectly safe and a whole lot more convenient/tidy.
    No more oily cases or oil on the floor. When I want to go riding I just get on and go, no farting around with oil removal and replacement.

    Glen
     
  15. DogT

    DogT VIP MEMBER

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2009
    I'm with you Glen. It's not dangerous if you do it right.

    Dave
     
  16. worntorn

    worntorn

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2006
    Almost every antisump valve oil starvation story is with an automatic ball and spring affair in the feed line. Those should never be used, not sure why they are still made. A couple of others have been manual valves with no safety interlock. Also not a good idea, unless your memory is always perfect, not many are.

    I have not seen a single report here or on any other forum of oil starvation and damage occurring when a safety switch or some other kind of interlock is used with a manual valve.

    Glen
     
  17. Anonymous

    Anonymous Guest

    Hi worntorn.
    A $2 ball and spring in a plastic cup masquerading as a valve (retailing for $50+ with caveat emptor thrown in for free) is what you fear will destroy an engine. I agree with you on that.
    However, I use a Hy-Lok valve CV3-F-6N-S213: a valve I acquired from an anaesthetist supply company so I am prepared to trust my engine to a valve that most of us can and do entrust our life to. Price in the market place? No idea - my guess, a lot closer to what your engine is worth than to $2 or even $50 :D,
    Ta.
    http://valvesandfittings.hylokusa.com/A ... Series.pdf
     
  18. Bernhard

    Bernhard

    Joined:
    Apr 20, 2011
     
  19. worntorn

    worntorn

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2006
    Fair enough, if there is one of these that is proven to work, go with it. The problem is that a number of the ball and spring oil feed line check valves that are currently used for this application have proven to destroy engines. There are numerous reports of engine destruction due to these auto antisump valves both here and on other Vintage bike forums. This is not limited to one product, as near as I can tell there are at least three separate brands that have had failures, including one that is a clear plastic unit like Velo used.
    I don't see the need to take a chance on such a design when there is an easy safe solution available.

    Glen
     
  20. Bernhard

    Bernhard

    Joined:
    Apr 20, 2011

    If you are referring to the ball valve & spring, after much experiment Velocette got it right by using a very weak spring that would just push the ball valve back onto its seat-and it is weak & made out of thin wire as the ball weighs very little when floating in oil
     

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