wet sump solution

Joined
Apr 20, 2011
Messages
4,801
Country flag
True, but even if you get all five surfaces flat and with no clearance to to the gears, oil will still leak through the gears and there's nothing you can do about that but replace the pump and hope the tolerances are good. IMHO, it's simply a poor design choice by Norton and BSA to use that type of pump.
I also meant where the cast iron plate is screwed onto the pump body - the pump bolts onto yhe c_ case. The edge of the plate stands proud of the body at the leading edge, you will never get it right until you file the excess metal off like I had to once.
 

marshg246

VIP MEMBER
Joined
Jul 12, 2015
Messages
872
Country flag
I also meant where the cast iron plate is screwed onto the pump body - the pump bolts onto yhe c_ case. The edge of the plate stands proud of the body at the leading edge, you will never get it right until you file the excess metal off like I had to once.
Agreed, that's one of the five surfaces.
 

NickZ

VIP MEMBER
Joined
Oct 31, 2018
Messages
205
Country flag
I’m always amazed to hear other owners mention that it takes days, or even weeks, for their bike to wet sump. My ‘74 Commando will wet sump significantly over night. Always has been that way. After a total rebuild this past emoter, right down to the crank itself with all new bearings, it will still significantly wet sump within a day oR two.

One of the best upgrades I ever purchased is the reed valve breather (mine from NYC Norton) affixed to the bottom of the engine. No concerns with wet sumping, engine smoking, or seal issues any longer. Reduced crank pressure also means no oil leaks.
I recently installed the NYC Norton reed valve breather on my '71 Commando. Relevant to this thread, one of the side effects of this upgrade is that opening the sump drain is a much more complicated operation. Certainly not something I would want to do pre-ride if wet sumping had occurred. I was ok with this because I had the understanding that the reed valve would mitigate the negative aspects of wet sumping, i.e. it would move the oil back to the tank rapidly and it would reduce the pressure in the crankcase so that the crank seal would not be blown out. It seems some folks on this thread are expressing dissenting opinions on that.

Also, I can't be sure of this because I never kept track before, but it seems that the bike is wet sumping more quickly than before the breather upgrade. Is it possible the reed valve makes it easier for oil to drain thru to the crankcase? It only takes a few days for the gauze to be visible in the tank.
 
Joined
Aug 30, 2006
Messages
385
Country flag
I have a ball valve on my N15.
I ONLY close it when I know that I won't be riding the bike for several weeks to come.
This happens 2 or 3 times a year, at the most.
It takes little discipline to remove the battery FIRST.
The lever of the valve is ALWAYS removed and stays with the battery.
I (or a practical joker..) cannot casually close the valve, because I have to get the lever first.
There is an additional reminder on the battery tray and on the battery itself.
The shaft of the valve is color-coded for doublecheck.
I open the valve a few days before I plan to use the bike, together with the normal routine,
like checking tire pressure, etc..

Where is the risk?
What am I doing wrong?




If ever I become so senile as to take the battery off the battery tender, disregard the lever attached to it,
not see the warning on the battery, install the battery without seeing the warning on the battery tray,
start up and ride away without checking tires, brakes, oil, lights...
Then it is probably best that I blow up the engine, quit riding and find another hobby.
(maybe become a keyboard rider, like some of the muliposters on this forum..?)
 
Last edited:
Joined
Dec 22, 2006
Messages
5,120
Country flag
I have a hunch you won't have a problem Ludwig.
I'm special needs on these things. I did think about just pulling plug leads when stored with oil off.
I think that would suffice.
In the spring, " Why are both plug leads off?" Oh right, the valve is off.
I made the key in valve setup instead, it is safe to the highest level of senility.
I guess that would be were the oil is off, but also key missing from ignition and ignition off with me flailing away on the kickstart wondering why the bike won't start.
At this point I suspect I will also have forgotten to wear pants and should not be out in public anyway.
Even so, the engine won't start and won't be damaged.

Glen
 
Joined
Nov 26, 2009
Messages
2,379
Country flag
Storm42 said " I was surprised to see that the upper shells had worn through to the copper."

The upper shells wearing through to the copper happens under load - pulling through the gears. If this happened on start and warm up in neutral the bottom shells would be worn through to the copper as well.

BTW - where the hell is the Magneto guy oil shutoff ignition interlock available to purchase?
 
Last edited:

lazyeye6

VIP MEMBER
Joined
Feb 28, 2014
Messages
869
Country flag
I bought a interlock shutoff valve on eBay some while back. On mounting it I found that the bike was hard to start (cNw electric starter).
It would crank, start and die. Crank start and die. Eventually catching and staying lit. It turned out that the wires were undersized to
supply the amps needed for the TriSpark and the dual coil. So......I bought this one.......


It has larger sized wires and works perfectly. Engine lights up immediately. I also have an oil pressure light and a Comstock reed valve breather.
Bring it on
 
Joined
Dec 22, 2006
Messages
5,120
Country flag
The feked unit looks to be from Iron John. Not pretty but they work. If it is one of his, he has tiddlied things up some.

Glen
 
Joined
Oct 16, 2016
Messages
332
Country flag
On my bikes where the oil is designed to be in the sump I generally am not concerned, a sight glass or bevel gazer does the trick. On my bikes with a separate oil tank.....they all have oil pressure gauges. Seems to be the (ok one) solution to concerns about anti sump valves, (I use one on a road bike)
 

gtiller

VIP MEMBER
Joined
Nov 5, 2012
Messages
986
Country flag
I am a big fan of an oil valve with an interlock and am currently testing the Feked unit.

It is made by them, and is good quality.

F181F1D3-8854-4A77-BEB7-18392BA4A087.jpeg

The good news is they do a normally open and normally closed flavour, so suitable for electronic ingnition/points ignition bikes as well as magneto bikes.


The unit is a lot less agricultural than the fitting that Iron John used to sell.

If I had any negative feedback on it, it would be that the micro switch is a little bit light duty for my liking.

6286AF85-E561-4F8D-908A-23DC6D077FFB.jpeg
 
Last edited:

MichaelB

"Sons of Arthritus"
VIP MEMBER
Joined
Jan 14, 2004
Messages
1,348
Country flag
Storm42 said " I was surprised to see that the upper shells had worn through to the copper."

The upper shells wearing through to the copper happens under load - pulling through the gears. If this happened on start and warm up in neutral the bottom shells would be worn through to the copper as well.

BTW - where the hell is the Magneto guy oil shutoff ignition interlock available to purchase?
 

gtiller

VIP MEMBER
Joined
Nov 5, 2012
Messages
986
Country flag
The guy that runs the Magneto Guys is the father of the guy that runs Kingpin Components, who make the other commercially available oil valve with electrical interlock.


We have the magneto version of this valve on the 650ss and I really like it.
It is built well, is the most unobtrusive of the bunch, and there is nothing to fail - it’s a ball bearing riding on a thick metal strip.

B2EA6193-13B4-426D-A319-6E630C4080C4.jpeg

On the magneto version, the switch is closed in all positions apart from when the valve is fully open.
So the magneto is earthed until the valve is open.


Because you need the opposite action for electronic ignition or points ignition, their solution is to ship a micro relay with their ‘coil ignition’ version.
The valve itself is identical.

I don’t like this at all:
  • when the ignition key is on, but the valve is still shut, the relay is energised, breaking your ignition circuit.
  • when the ignition key is he, and the valve is open, the relay is not energised, and your engine ignition circuit operates normally.
Great that when the relay fails, you can ride your bike.
But not great that when the relay fails, you no longer have an ignition interlock.
It’s a tiny relay, and I feel not robust enough for use on our bikes - it feel that it will fail, and you won’t necessarily notice it.

My preference with this valve would be to wire it in to your horn instead.
No extra relays, nothing to fail.
If your oil valve is shut off, and you turn your ignition key, your horn will beep.
I think this is the most reliable way to use this particular valve on a coil ignition bike.

B3FAFAD6-9DF5-4FC9-963B-4C5F65521B91.jpeg
 
Joined
Nov 4, 2007
Messages
967
Country flag
The guy that runs the Magneto Guys is the father of the guy that runs Kingpin Components, who make the other commercially available oil valve with electrical interlock.


We have the magneto version of this valve on the 650ss and I really like it.
It is built well, is the most unobtrusive of the bunch, and there is nothing to fail - it’s a ball bearing riding on a thick metal strip.

View attachment 18576

On the magneto version, the switch is closed in all positions apart from when the valve is fully open.
So the magneto is earthed until the valve is open.


Because you need the opposite action for electronic ignition or points ignition, their solution is to ship a micro relay with their ‘coil ignition’ version.
The valve itself is identical.

I don’t like this at all:
  • when the ignition key is on, but the valve is still shut, the relay is energised, breaking your ignition circuit.
  • when the ignition key is he, and the valve is open, the relay is not energised, and your engine ignition circuit operates normally.
Great that when the relay fails, you can ride your bike.
But not great that when the relay fails, you no longer have an ignition interlock.
It’s a tiny relay, and I feel not robust enough for use on our bikes - it feel that it will fail, and you won’t necessarily notice it.

My preference with this valve would be to wire it in to your horn instead.
No extra relays, nothing to fail.
If your oil valve is shut off, and you turn your ignition key, your horn will beep.
I think this is the most reliable way to use this particular valve on a coil ignition bike.

View attachment 18577
Hi, I had bought one from them , may be one year ago for a friend's bike , and there was no relay (coil ignition).....this year I need another one for another buddy , and the relay is there .......why ??? as you said it's not 100 % reliable why not fit a bigger relay , and what is the wiring for your solution ........?
 

gtiller

VIP MEMBER
Joined
Nov 5, 2012
Messages
986
Country flag
@marinatlas they have two versions available:
  • Oil Tap with Cutout Switch for Magneto £43.00
  • Oil Tap with Cutout Switch for Coil Ignition £53.00
The valve is identical, but the coil ignition kit includes a relay.

My idea of using it to sound the horn eliminates the relay, and relies only on the ball bearing riding on the big arc of metal on the switch - by fart my preference!

Here is an overview of my findings:


My overview comes across as a little negative.
That was not my intention - I really like this valve, it is robust and simple.
I just don't like the idea of using a relay for the sake of it, particularly when it could easily fail leaving me thinking that I have a good safeguard when actually I have nothing.


Note that this is just my opinion based on my own findings and experience of the product.
I appreciate that there are plenty of people out there with other views and opinions, whom I have no doubt upset and/or enraged by posting this.
 
Joined
Nov 4, 2007
Messages
967
Country flag
@marinatlas they have two versions available:
  • Oil Tap with Cutout Switch for Magneto £43.00
  • Oil Tap with Cutout Switch for Coil Ignition £53.00
The valve is identical, but the coil ignition kit includes a relay.

My idea of using it to sound the horn eliminates the relay, and relies only on the ball bearing riding on the big arc of metal on the switch - by fart my preference!

Here is an overview of my findings:


My overview comes across as a little negative.
That was not my intention - I really like this valve, it is robust and simple.
I just don't like the idea of using a relay for the sake of it, particularly when it could easily fail leaving me thinking that I have a good safeguard when actually I have nothing.


Note that this is just my opinion based on my own findings and experience of the product.
I appreciate that there are plenty of people out there with other views and opinions, whom I have no doubt upset and/or enraged by posting this.
Thank you Grant ........will do that when I will receive that oil tap (pity I dunno that before , as I had saved 10 £ !!)........
 

maylar

VIP MEMBER
Joined
May 13, 2007
Messages
3,086
Country flag
Or...

Pull the spark plugs out and push the e-start button for a few seconds?
 
  • Like
Reactions: baz
Joined
Dec 13, 2017
Messages
6
Country flag
A couple people contacted me recently with blown motors and sad tales about oil line shut off valves (a terrible idea).

The only real problem with wet sumping I've heard of is blowing out a main crank seal. Too much oil in the sump is going to lube the cam and the journals. Too much oil in the timing chest is going to cover the oil pump and give you a spurt on startup for the rockers and its only a few seconds before oil returns to the oil tank to begin circulation. So that brings us back to the main oil seal blowing out.

Last night I realized that an Oring between the primary sprocket and the oil seal would prevent the oil seal from blowing out. An 1/8" cross section with 1-1/8" ID should fit very well and have minimum clearance. It hasn't been tested but I can't see a downside.

Forget about those disaster prone oil shutoffs. Throw in a cheap Oring instead (use silicone or viton for exposed belt drives so they won't dry out and crack). I hope this solution checks out positive and puts this whole wetsumping issue to rest.
I view wetsumping prevention a good excuse to tell ones wife "I gotta ride or the engine may fail!" Truly, it gets me starting and riding them even if its for 30 minutes (of great therapy!).
 
Joined
Jul 26, 2017
Messages
90
Country flag
It’s not rocket science. Put in the anti sump check ball. If you start the bike and the red light keeps going blink blinky then turn your shit off. Problem solved. The shut off valve is just plain stupid.
 
Top