Wet sumping head ?

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blacklav said:
Ugh! Hobut , I`m feeling depressed now.
Even if this 13mm of oil is a definate fault ( indicating the blocked drain) how can it get into the engine if the inlet valve seals are OK?
I think the quick answer will be to take the head off and be done with it
Ho hum.
chris r
Click to expand...

It would be easier to pop off the timing cover and blow some air up the hole.
 
blacklav said:
Ugh! Hobut , I`m feeling depressed now.
Even if this 13mm of oil is a definate fault ( indicating the blocked drain) how can it get into the engine if the inlet valve seals are OK?
I think the quick answer will be to take the head off and be done with it
Ho hum.
chris r
Click to expand...
Oil seals are not 100% efficient specially after some miles get put on and having this 13mm pool of oil there pretty much saturates the seal in oil as it is being constantly churned up by the springs and leaning the bike etc. I'd try what Jim said and pull the timing cover 1st.
 
I suggest you try the easy stuff first.

Get some stainless steel safety wire with a sharp pointed cut end. Fashion it into a tiny cork screw shape and go fishng from the intake valve pocket side. They do this in the oil field but on a slightly bigger scale. You could also just try probing around a bit with a straight safety wire.

If that fails to give results consider putting some moderate air pressure to the crankcase; how much pressure, I don't know and maybe others can chime in on this. If over done you could upset the crankshaft seal.
 
Blaclav, is there a quality crankcase breather fitted.
Could the problem be Crankcase pressure.
Oil won't drain away if there is too much pressure against it.
A friend had the same problem (oil biuld up in the head) with his Atlas race motor, a breather fixed the problem.
Just a thought.
AC.

Yes it has a one way valve fitted to the breather.
Come to think of it there is`nt a lot of air pulsing from the breather to the oil tank, maybe the one way valve has been fitted the wrong way.
Will check everything tomorrow and post an update.
Chris r
 
You might be on to something.
My breather is plumbed via the oil tank and it really pushes some air through.
When the oil cap is undone with the motor running, it jumps around like a Flapper on top
of a large truck exhaust, almost enough to hold it in suspension.
AC.
 
Dances with Shrapnel said:
I suggest you try the easy stuff first.

Get some stainless steel safety wire with a sharp pointed cut end. Fashion it into a tiny cork screw shape and go fishng from the intake valve pocket side. They do this in the oil field but on a slightly bigger scale. You could also just try probing around a bit with a straight safety wire.

If that fails to give results consider putting some moderate air pressure to the crankcase; how much pressure, I don't know and maybe others can chime in on this. If over done you could upset the crankshaft seal.
Click to expand...


This is one way of doing it, but for best results make sure all the oil is drained out of the head, refit loosely the tappet covers, then remove the timing cover and with an high pressure airline, blow into the oil drain hole that comes from the head.
If necessary, put your finger over each of the holes at the bottom valve spring collar to check that there is no blockage.
 
Bernhard said:
Dances with Shrapnel said:
I suggest you try the easy stuff first.

Get some stainless steel safety wire with a sharp pointed cut end. Fashion it into a tiny cork screw shape and go fishng from the intake valve pocket side. They do this in the oil field but on a slightly bigger scale. You could also just try probing around a bit with a straight safety wire.

If that fails to give results consider putting some moderate air pressure to the crankcase; how much pressure, I don't know and maybe others can chime in on this. If over done you could upset the crankshaft seal.
Click to expand...


This is one way of doing it, but for best results make sure all the oil is drained out of the head, refit loosely the tappet covers, then remove the timing cover and with an high pressure airline, blow into the oil drain hole that comes from the head.
If necessary, put your finger over each of the holes at the bottom valve spring collar to check that there is no blockage.
Click to expand...

I was suggesting "trying the easy stuff" first. Well for best results, take the whole bloody thing apart and inspect. :roll:

There is one drain back hole on the intake side, the location of which is described elsewhere in this thread. Besides, it is rather difficult to put your finger anywhere near the bottom of a valve spring collar when you have refit the tappet covers :oops:

The breather problem may have merit although I don't know why the oil would not immediately drain down when hot and the engine is off (presumable the condition when the 15mm of oil depth was observed).
 
Yes , good point.
The breather has a one way valve, fitted correctly. There is`nt much pressure through it even with the valve removed.
It looks like the original thought of a blocked drain hole
I had a go with thin wire and although you cannot see the drain hole i managed to feed the wire in.
It only went in about 2 inches before stopping dead. I thought it was hitting the head gasket but when measured it,it was easily 3/4 inch short of this.
I`ll take the timing cover off and blow it out at the weekend, keep you posted.
Many thanks guys
chris r
 
You are probably snagging the intersection of the two drillings. One is at an oblique angle (from the valve pocket) and the other is perpendicular to the head gasket surface. You can see where they made an allowance in the casting that sticks out. Let us know how it goes.
 
A quick update.
Ive had the timing side off and blew high pressure air up it, then with the wife`s superduper vacuum cleaner i sealed a rubber tube to it for maximum suction, alternating between sucking and blowing.
Nothing appeared to be blocked as the air moves freely both ways.
After doing this for a while i poured some oil into the inlet cover where it stayed for 10 mins.
Admittedly the oil was cold and thick. I will get the engine and oil nice and hot at the weekend and check the level and the smoke again.

I phoned Peter at norvil, he came up with an instance where the oil rings fitted were sub standard. This caused the smoke -when hot- but produced non of the symptons of broken rings i.e. loss of compression.
Plus , removing a carb to see if there is any sign of oil on the valve stem, Which would verify oil penetration from the valve seals rather than rings, clever.


Will post outcome next week.
Chris r
 
Chris,
It might be easier to look down the plug hole. With a bright torch you can see the valves as they open, piston top and the cylinder wall.

Did you check the rocker spindles were in the correct orientation? that's an other easy job with a bit of bent wire.

Cash
 
I found a little led bulb that fits down the plug hole work well for cylinder/piston top inspection, easy to stop oil flow to head to see if the smoking stops.
 
Just been for a 30 mile ride, Oil in the head is draining , but still smoking.
Removed carb, traces of oil on valve stem so suspect valve seals.
I would try the suggestion of running the motor without the oil feed to the head. Surely this is asking for trouble as the oil is there for a reason and without it things start to wear out.
Chris r
 
blacklav said:
Just been for a 30 mile ride, Oil in the head is draining , but still smoking.
Removed carb, traces of oil on valve stem so suspect valve seals.
I would try the suggestion of running the motor without the oil feed to the head. Surely this is asking for trouble as the oil is there for a reason and without it things start to wear out.
Chris r
Click to expand...

You say "oil on valve stem".
The only way it can get on stem is from guide with bad seal or loose guide.
No way it could get there from piston/rings.
You didn't say stems so it sounds like one side only which also sounds like seal or guide.

There are threads that describe replacing seal with head on bike. A little tricky but some have done it.
However if you have quite a few miles on the head it may be a good time to pull it and refresh valves.
 
hobot said:
Oil drain clog popped to my mine too. Drain is in rear RH corner of rocker. Here's top of barrel looking front to back to see the smallest hole at 10'o'clock position that lines up with hole in bottom of head. Gasket and/or goop can block it. It goes through cases to drool out raw into TS case. Not sure even if wire poked down head would help as likely not blocked in head passage. ugh.

Wet sumping head ?
Click to expand...
how much oil should there be in inlet chamber around valve springs base,there is a small amount of oil 4mm deep i reckon,,i have smokey RHS exhaust when bike warms up, not massive amounts of smoke a little if i give it a rap and on decelarating aswell,,should there still be oil in there as i have not ridden it for a week,,,,i have started to remove head but wondering if its drain plug blocked after reading this thread, also the RHS exhaust rocker arm has sideway play in it is that normal thoughts??? thanks rich.
 
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