Wet Sump Valve Comparison Test-Something Everone Should See

Re: Wet Sump Valve Comparison Test-Something Everone Should

They are called Dowty washers and are available at most auto parts stores. They come in an extensive range of sizes and types, all the way from tiny 6BA Imperial to 2 1/2" Imperial plus a range of metric sizes as mentioned above. There is also a self centering type. I like them a lot, they definitely dried up some of the weeps and seeps on my Vincent.

Glen

Re: Wet Sump Valve Comparison Test-Something Everone Should

pauldridge said:

Here's an inline electric solenoid valve (1/4" inlet/outlet) on eBay for just $11. Install it on the tank line, hook up the electric to switched power, and the valve opens and closes automatically at startup and shutdown. Of course, there is no way to know if it malfunctions, so that's why I have an oil pressure gauge on my bike to monitor.

The solenoid doesn't care about polarity, so no worry about positive ground systems:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/231361509459

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Is this fail open or fail close.

Also, for those who say wet sumping is no big deal. On my Atlas, it will drain the entire tank in about a week. This fills up the crankcase and leaks EVERYWHERE. I have since done the AMR NORTEC mod and had the oil pump serviced. Hopefully this will slow down the wet sumping.

Re: Wet Sump Valve Comparison Test-Something Everone Should

Johnnymac said:

Also, for those who say wet sumping is no big deal. On my Atlas, it will drain the entire tank in about a week.

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On my Atlas it took a week or so when I just parked it. Considerably more than a month when I kicked into TDC after the ride which basically meant that wet-sumping was no issue as I rode it each weekend.



Tim

Re: Wet Sump Valve Comparison Test-Something Everone Should

Ok we know the damage level of failed anti wet sump gizmos so ask for list of damages experieced with fully wet sumped Nortons? I don't think no oil in tank is of any concern as its takes a few seconds even in fully primed oil system to reach significant pressure to surf parts on and by then enough oil is back in tank to feed pump. Still very entertaining to see all the solutions and successes with Rick&Mary-Associates being the most automatic hidden slick solution. Commandos being a thinking man's/woman's cycle add leaving near TDC as proper disipline habit.

Re: Wet Sump Valve Comparison Test-Something Everone Should

Tintin said:

Johnnymac said:

Also, for those who say wet sumping is no big deal. On my Atlas, it will drain the entire tank in about a week.

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On my Atlas it took a week or so when I just parked it. Considerably more than a month when I kicked into TDC after the ride which basically meant that wet-sumping was no issue as I rode it each weekend.



Tim

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Love your signature line about finest British parts.

Forgive my ignorance, why does leaving at TDC prevent it?

Re: Wet Sump Valve Comparison Test-Something Everone Should

When the crank is at TDC the oil outlet is at its highest so the pressure on the outlet is at its lowest. Its the height of the column of oil that determines the pressure and if the outlet and inlet are at the same level the pressure is nil. Exactly the same as a diver underwater.

Re: Wet Sump Valve Comparison Test-Something Everone Should

xbacksideslider said:

Love your signature line about finest British parts.

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Ah, yes, I should alter it as the HD throws all kind of parts away.... 8)

Forgive my ignorance, why does leaving at TDC prevent it?

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I can only offer an "educated guess": There's two leakage paths, one through the feed pump into the Timing cover and then into the crank. The other is past the shaft from the feed to the scavenge side and then into the sump.

Kicking a (pre-72) Norton twin into TDC means two things: That the "exit" of the crank-side path has the lowest pressure differential. Compared to BDC the oil holes of the crank are 89mm higher up, more or less the crank forms a siphon then. Furthermore the cam-timed breather is in the closed position so oil entering the crankcase would have to push the same volume of air out. With the timed breather in closed position this effect sees a little more resistance than with the breather in open position.

I guess that both effects together slow the process down a bit and therefore a week is not enough to drain that much.

Tim

Re: Wet Sump Valve Comparison Test-Something Everone Should

Tintin said:

Furthermore the cam-timed breather is in the closed position so oil entering the crankcase would have to push the same volume of air out. With the timed breather in closed position this effect sees a little more resistance than with the breather in open position.

I guess that both effects together slow the process down a bit and therefore a week is not enough to drain that much.

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Whether the pre-72 timed disc valve would be sufficiently airtight when closed to be capable of posing significant restriction would be doubtful, I think, however, it seems irrelevant as piston rings are not gas-tight when static (if rings can ever be considered 100% gas-tight?) as air displaced by the slow draining of the oil to the crankcase would easily escape past the piston rings, and with at least one cylinder valve being open at any point in the crankshaft position, one cylinder will always be 'open to atmosphere', and even if that wasn't so, the displaced air would still find its way out down the (exhaust) valve guides, so in my opinion it's highly unlikely that air in the crankcase offers any resistance whatsoever to the rate of oil drain.

Re: Wet Sump Valve Comparison Test-Something Everone Should

L.A.B. said:

....so in my opinion it's highly unlikely that air in the crankcase offers any resistance whatsoever to the rate of oil drain.

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The open breather offers at least no resistance at all, that is obvious. Whether this really makes a difference I can't tell because I don't have the comparison with a later breather as the Nortons I used regularly enough to judge whether they are wetsumping or not were all pre-1972. However I think that putting the crank to it highest position plays a more important role.


Tim

Re: Wet Sump Valve Comparison Test-Something Everone Should

It's kind of funny. Some will do and pay anything to stop wet sumping, some master engine builders will do nothing at all and others will or will not do everything in between.

After years of reading these posts, it is obvious that it is a personal preference sort of thing and from what I have gathered, the best and safest valve is probably no valve at all.

That big ole banjo bolt from Holland looks pretty good, but I have trust issues when it comes to automatic check thingies that effect a gravity fed situation.

I choose to look at my 43 year old motorcycle and face that fact that all the modernization and all the safety upgrades do not change that fact, thank goodness, that this is still an old Norton Commando and needs to be treated and respected as such. You can rework the pump, leave it at tdc, put a MKIII timing cover are even send yours out to get modded, put on inline valves, checks switches from a menagerie of imagination and on and on. Just please remember this, there is no right way or wrong way. Just do what is comfortable for you and be ready to take responsibly for what ever you decide to do.

Fluid migration is a given. Embrace or don't, its a personal thing.

P.S. this post is not meant as an end all (as if), just a perspective.
(I still use the ball valve off the plumbing rack. Seems like about 5 years now. I have, however, upgraded from brass to chrome plated brass.)

Re: Wet Sump Valve Comparison Test-Something Everone Should

Hehe Pete - sort of like old sailing boat ya can't just hop in and key on and go eh. A fail safe auto or manual device is a nice convinence item but even full wet sump does not cause any extra pressure, only ring blow by does, so to assume/claim wet sump is cause of leaks rather than just revealing areas with sealing issues makes no sense to me. Like more effective breathers, anti-sump valve lets ya get along cleaner longer on degrading engine wear or assembly or bad part factors, which is a good thing just not a bragging point if ya really get down to it.