Wet Sump Valve Comparison Test-Something Everone Should See
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Re: Wet Sump Valve Comparison Test-Something Everone Should
Before we had the AMR timing case and oil pump modification, there was no other choice to stop the leak down of oil, except live with it. But a proper engineer can choose the valve type, and wire the Forgetmenot device so that most likely cause of Forgetmenot failure will shut down the engine. Murphy can be mitigated to a highly unlikely event. For those who think such odds are still not good enough, for Heaven's sake do not use one of those automatic things.
There is no reason to use any device in the feed line anymore. To purchase a quality valve and switch, and fabricate a means to lockout the engine is not cost effective compared to the AMR modification ( $70 plus 2 way shipping).
My previous post was directed at those obstinate few using the automated valves who refuse ball valves on the basis of "ugly". For those using manual valves, consider the AMR mod. I did....that is why the valve in the picture of my previous post is no longer on my Atlas.
Slick
Tintin said:
Before we had the AMR timing case and oil pump modification, there was no other choice to stop the leak down of oil, except live with it. But a proper engineer can choose the valve type, and wire the Forgetmenot device so that most likely cause of Forgetmenot failure will shut down the engine. Murphy can be mitigated to a highly unlikely event. For those who think such odds are still not good enough, for Heaven's sake do not use one of those automatic things.
There is no reason to use any device in the feed line anymore. To purchase a quality valve and switch, and fabricate a means to lockout the engine is not cost effective compared to the AMR modification ( $70 plus 2 way shipping).
My previous post was directed at those obstinate few using the automated valves who refuse ball valves on the basis of "ugly". For those using manual valves, consider the AMR mod. I did....that is why the valve in the picture of my previous post is no longer on my Atlas.
Slick
Re: Wet Sump Valve Comparison Test-Something Everone Should
The AMR mod doesn't always stop wet sumping according to Matt at CNW, who had quite a few engines done. Some other posters who have had it done also still had wet sumping to some degree. I agree, it is worth a try since it seems to do the trick about 50% of the time and doesn't cost much.
On the other hand a ball valve that has no switch but still has to be turned on for the engine to run does stop wet sumping 100 % and poses no danger whatsoever to the engine. If I have a ride planned and think of it, I open the valve a week or so early to let the oil tank empty about half it's contents into the sump for startup lube.
So you can have the best of both worlds, no oil puking out on the floor or need to screw around draining and refilling oil before a ride, plus you can easily give a controlled extra squirt so the cams a little extra lube for startup.
Glen
The AMR mod doesn't always stop wet sumping according to Matt at CNW, who had quite a few engines done. Some other posters who have had it done also still had wet sumping to some degree. I agree, it is worth a try since it seems to do the trick about 50% of the time and doesn't cost much.
On the other hand a ball valve that has no switch but still has to be turned on for the engine to run does stop wet sumping 100 % and poses no danger whatsoever to the engine. If I have a ride planned and think of it, I open the valve a week or so early to let the oil tank empty about half it's contents into the sump for startup lube.
So you can have the best of both worlds, no oil puking out on the floor or need to screw around draining and refilling oil before a ride, plus you can easily give a controlled extra squirt so the cams a little extra lube for startup.
Glen
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Re: Wet Sump Valve Comparison Test-Something Everone Should
@Worntorn
Glen, your valve concept is the best I have seen. You should consider making them for those who do not have the machines or skills to do so. If it were priced competitive to the AMR mod, I might opt for it, as I agree the AMR mod does not always stop wet sumping 100%.
My experience with the AMR mod is insufficient to make any further comment on its effectiveness.
Slick
PS: With your valve, is it not possible to simply insert the key in the switch without first turning the valve?
@Worntorn
Glen, your valve concept is the best I have seen. You should consider making them for those who do not have the machines or skills to do so. If it were priced competitive to the AMR mod, I might opt for it, as I agree the AMR mod does not always stop wet sumping 100%.
My experience with the AMR mod is insufficient to make any further comment on its effectiveness.
Slick
PS: With your valve, is it not possible to simply insert the key in the switch without first turning the valve?
Re: Wet Sump Valve Comparison Test-Something Everone Should
That's right, the key fob with key attached is needed to turn the oil off. Once off, the key cannot be removed from the valve without first turning on the oil flow.
Glen
texasSlick said:
That's right, the key fob with key attached is needed to turn the oil off. Once off, the key cannot be removed from the valve without first turning on the oil flow.
Glen
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Re: Wet Sump Valve Comparison Test-Something Everone Should
That is super! You should make these for sale. Aw crap! I would have to put in an ignition switch and bin my magneto! Well, there are others...you should have a good market for them.
Slick
worntorn said:
That is super! You should make these for sale. Aw crap! I would have to put in an ignition switch and bin my magneto! Well, there are others...you should have a good market for them.
Slick
htown16
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Re: Wet Sump Valve Comparison Test-Something Everone Should
I got my AMR modded timing cover and pump back a few weeks ago and got it installed on my 72. So far so good. It appears not to be wet sumping at all. The most it has sat between rides is about a week and the oil level never moved compared to its previously draining the tank in about 3 days. Would it leak down over several months, really can't say. Since I ride pretty much year round here, I may never find out and even if it did I would still be satisfied. What I hated was draining the sump every time I rode it which is about every week or two.
For those not familiar with the mods it consists of milling a space in the timing cover at the pump output for a check ball and spring. Being on the output side the full force of the pump lifts the ball. The pump is also rebuilt and grooves are machined and o-rings fitted to seperate the intake and output sides.
To me this is basically a proven design because it is exactly the same system used in BSA twins. I know someone is going to say "but old BSA's wet sump too" and indeed they do. I have first hand knowledge on my 70 Thunderbolt. What happens is over time the spring holding the check ball weakens. On early BSA's the cases had to be split to replace the spring and ball and on later ones both inner and outer timing covers and the oil pump need to come off. Even this is a fair bit of work, so the springs and balls were rarely replaced. On the Commando AMR mod it should be easy to pull the timing cover and replace the spring if need be.
Also, BSA pumps except for the last year or two were made of a fairly soft alloy. This caused the ball seat to wear quickly and start to leak. On a Norton the pump is iron. I replaced the alloy pump on my Thunderbolt with one from SRM and replaced the spring and ball. The SRM pump also has orings similar to the AMR mod. Now it doesn't wet sump at all after previously draining the tank in a couple of days.
I got my AMR modded timing cover and pump back a few weeks ago and got it installed on my 72. So far so good. It appears not to be wet sumping at all. The most it has sat between rides is about a week and the oil level never moved compared to its previously draining the tank in about 3 days. Would it leak down over several months, really can't say. Since I ride pretty much year round here, I may never find out and even if it did I would still be satisfied. What I hated was draining the sump every time I rode it which is about every week or two.
For those not familiar with the mods it consists of milling a space in the timing cover at the pump output for a check ball and spring. Being on the output side the full force of the pump lifts the ball. The pump is also rebuilt and grooves are machined and o-rings fitted to seperate the intake and output sides.
To me this is basically a proven design because it is exactly the same system used in BSA twins. I know someone is going to say "but old BSA's wet sump too" and indeed they do. I have first hand knowledge on my 70 Thunderbolt. What happens is over time the spring holding the check ball weakens. On early BSA's the cases had to be split to replace the spring and ball and on later ones both inner and outer timing covers and the oil pump need to come off. Even this is a fair bit of work, so the springs and balls were rarely replaced. On the Commando AMR mod it should be easy to pull the timing cover and replace the spring if need be.
Also, BSA pumps except for the last year or two were made of a fairly soft alloy. This caused the ball seat to wear quickly and start to leak. On a Norton the pump is iron. I replaced the alloy pump on my Thunderbolt with one from SRM and replaced the spring and ball. The SRM pump also has orings similar to the AMR mod. Now it doesn't wet sump at all after previously draining the tank in a couple of days.
DogT
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Re: Wet Sump Valve Comparison Test-Something Everone Should
If you need it water proof,buy IronJohns or get a prox switch and rare earth magnet, attach that to the ball valve and drive a headlamp relay to switch the ignition.
I only switch the ignition circuit in and out on my early bike.
Buy IronJohns or make one. It's pretty easy. Get a 3/8 PEX ball valve and attach a micro-switch with a couple hose clamps.Bazz said:
If you need it water proof,buy IronJohns or get a prox switch and rare earth magnet, attach that to the ball valve and drive a headlamp relay to switch the ignition.
I only switch the ignition circuit in and out on my early bike.
Fast Eddie
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Re: Wet Sump Valve Comparison Test-Something Everone Should
Forgive me if I am being naïve here... but it seems to me that a good and 'tight' oil pump does not let an engine wet sump excessively / over quickly.
My own bike, with a new AN pump can be left for weeks without issue. It seems to me that the sensible, or more 'pure' engineering approach to fix a wet sumping motor, is to fix the oil pump. All other external interventions seem to be working around the root cause of the problem.
All IMHO of course.
Forgive me if I am being naïve here... but it seems to me that a good and 'tight' oil pump does not let an engine wet sump excessively / over quickly.
My own bike, with a new AN pump can be left for weeks without issue. It seems to me that the sensible, or more 'pure' engineering approach to fix a wet sumping motor, is to fix the oil pump. All other external interventions seem to be working around the root cause of the problem.
All IMHO of course.
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Re: Wet Sump Valve Comparison Test-Something Everone Should
There's a convention in nuclear stations, that the only time you rely on micro switches for safety is never.
There's a convention in nuclear stations, that the only time you rely on micro switches for safety is never.
Re: Wet Sump Valve Comparison Test-Something Everone Should
Any thing between the oil tank and the oil pump intake is a potential for a BIG problem. Besides, most of the Gryo Gearloose gadgetry I've seen here tends to be on the ugly side. Commando owners were slow, some outright resistant, to accept the reed valve crankcase breather. Now, a reed valve breather is de rigueur . I see this same attitude with the AMR wet-sumping mod. Given time, and a few misfortunes with inline valves, the AMR mod will be the accepted way to address wet-sumping.
Any thing between the oil tank and the oil pump intake is a potential for a BIG problem. Besides, most of the Gryo Gearloose gadgetry I've seen here tends to be on the ugly side. Commando owners were slow, some outright resistant, to accept the reed valve crankcase breather. Now, a reed valve breather is de rigueur . I see this same attitude with the AMR wet-sumping mod. Given time, and a few misfortunes with inline valves, the AMR mod will be the accepted way to address wet-sumping.
N
nortonspeed
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Re: Wet Sump Valve Comparison Test-Something Everone Should
[album
][/album]
Forget about all the questionable and ugly valves just fit this 'European machined' automatic anti wet sump valve: safe (no oil pressure drop at all) and clean (http://www.hollandnortonworks.eu/?lang=EN&page=10).
Some pretty wild stories go around about anti wet sump valves. Any Norton will wet sump, depending the condition of your oil pump it will go slow or fast. Fitting an anti wet sump valve does not have to result in disaster. If you decide to fit an automatic valve make sure your oil pump is in good condition (40 to 60 psi hot). The problem of most spring loaded valves is that the spring is loaded way too strong. The valve should have a spring load as light as possible to minimize resistance but just strong enough to stop the oil sumping. I have tested three types of automatic anti wet sump valves: RGM valve (closed alloy body), CNW valve (alloy with see-through part in the middle) and HNW oil tank valve. Compared to using none the RGM type valve effected an oil pressure drop of approximately 10% throughout the rev range where the CNW valve caused oil pressure loss close to nothing and the HNW valve causes no oil pressure drop at all. When I took the valves apart I found out the RGM type valve has a reasonably tight spring to press a steel ball on its seat preventing oil from entering where the CNW valve has a synthetic ball hold by a less tight spring and the HNW oil tank valve has a larger soft spring and ball pressing against a rubber seating instead of an alloy seating of the former two valves. I have used the HNW oil tank valve now for over 30.000 mls (I also have fitted a pressure gauge) and will continue to use it until someone comes up with an even better solution :!:
[album
Forget about all the questionable and ugly valves just fit this 'European machined' automatic anti wet sump valve: safe (no oil pressure drop at all) and clean (http://www.hollandnortonworks.eu/?lang=EN&page=10).
Some pretty wild stories go around about anti wet sump valves. Any Norton will wet sump, depending the condition of your oil pump it will go slow or fast. Fitting an anti wet sump valve does not have to result in disaster. If you decide to fit an automatic valve make sure your oil pump is in good condition (40 to 60 psi hot). The problem of most spring loaded valves is that the spring is loaded way too strong. The valve should have a spring load as light as possible to minimize resistance but just strong enough to stop the oil sumping. I have tested three types of automatic anti wet sump valves: RGM valve (closed alloy body), CNW valve (alloy with see-through part in the middle) and HNW oil tank valve. Compared to using none the RGM type valve effected an oil pressure drop of approximately 10% throughout the rev range where the CNW valve caused oil pressure loss close to nothing and the HNW valve causes no oil pressure drop at all. When I took the valves apart I found out the RGM type valve has a reasonably tight spring to press a steel ball on its seat preventing oil from entering where the CNW valve has a synthetic ball hold by a less tight spring and the HNW oil tank valve has a larger soft spring and ball pressing against a rubber seating instead of an alloy seating of the former two valves. I have used the HNW oil tank valve now for over 30.000 mls (I also have fitted a pressure gauge) and will continue to use it until someone comes up with an even better solution :!:
madass140
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Re: Wet Sump Valve Comparison Test-Something Everone Should
Looks good and good post , you gave a good assessment. if I was going to use one then I'd probably use this one
but for my current build I'll settle for carefull overhauling of the pump, fairly heavy weight oil ( I live in fairly warm climate and leaving the motor on TDC when parked. I'll see how that goes before purchasing.
Looks good and good post , you gave a good assessment. if I was going to use one then I'd probably use this one
but for my current build I'll settle for carefull overhauling of the pump, fairly heavy weight oil ( I live in fairly warm climate and leaving the motor on TDC when parked. I'll see how that goes before purchasing.
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Re: Wet Sump Valve Comparison Test-Something Everone Should
My Commando wet sumps, so what!?
Just kick it over a few times to prime the carb and pump some of the oil out, key on, she starts, blows some smoke for 5 seconds. Fact that my crankcase breather line has a reed valve at the crankcase helps.
My Commando wet sumps, so what!?
Just kick it over a few times to prime the carb and pump some of the oil out, key on, she starts, blows some smoke for 5 seconds. Fact that my crankcase breather line has a reed valve at the crankcase helps.
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Re: Wet Sump Valve Comparison Test-Something Everone Should
Here's an inline electric solenoid valve (1/4" inlet/outlet) on eBay for just $11. Install it on the tank line, hook up the electric to switched power, and the valve opens and closes automatically at startup and shutdown. Of course, there is no way to know if it malfunctions, so that's why I have an oil pressure gauge on my bike to monitor.
The solenoid doesn't care about polarity, so no worry about positive ground systems:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/231361509459
Here's an inline electric solenoid valve (1/4" inlet/outlet) on eBay for just $11. Install it on the tank line, hook up the electric to switched power, and the valve opens and closes automatically at startup and shutdown. Of course, there is no way to know if it malfunctions, so that's why I have an oil pressure gauge on my bike to monitor.
The solenoid doesn't care about polarity, so no worry about positive ground systems:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/231361509459
Re: Wet Sump Valve Comparison Test-Something Everone Should
Nice looking valve. If wet sumping depletes all the oil in the intake line will the pump still overcome the spring? My guess would be maybe, maybe not.
Nice looking valve. If wet sumping depletes all the oil in the intake line will the pump still overcome the spring? My guess would be maybe, maybe not.
nortonspeed said:[album][/album]
Forget about all the questionable and ugly valves just fit this 'European machined' automatic anti wet sump valve: safe (no oil pressure drop at all) and clean (http://www.hollandnortonworks.eu/?lang=EN&page=10).
Some pretty wild stories go around about anti wet sump valves. Any Norton will wet sump, depending the condition of your oil pump it will go slow or fast. Fitting an anti wet sump valve does not have to result in disaster. If you decide to fit an automatic valve make sure your oil pump is in good condition (40 to 60 psi hot). The problem of most spring loaded valves is that the spring is loaded way too strong. The valve should have a spring load as light as possible to minimize resistance but just strong enough to stop the oil sumping. I have tested three types of automatic anti wet sump valves: RGM valve (closed alloy body), CNW valve (alloy with see-through part in the middle) and HNW oil tank valve. Compared to using none the RGM type valve effected an oil pressure drop of approximately 10% throughout the rev range where the CNW valve caused oil pressure loss close to nothing and the HNW valve causes no oil pressure drop at all. When I took the valves apart I found out the RGM type valve has a reasonably tight spring to press a steel ball on its seat preventing oil from entering where the CNW valve has a synthetic ball hold by a less tight spring and the HNW oil tank valve has a larger soft spring and ball pressing against a rubber seating instead of an alloy seating of the former two valves. I have used the HNW oil tank valve now for over 30.000 mls (I also have fitted a pressure gauge) and will continue to use it until someone comes up with an even better solution :!:
elefantrider
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Re: Wet Sump Valve Comparison Test-Something Everone Should
Where does one get the steel/rubber washers in that size?
Where does one get the steel/rubber washers in that size?
Re: Wet Sump Valve Comparison Test-Something Everone Should
I just go to my local hydraulic supply firm but i have seen them on Ebay to. The ones i used (can't remember sizes sorry) for large sump plug, small plugs and oil feed bango were all metric sized (even though fittings are not) but fitted nicely and are readly available and cheap.
elefantrider said:
I just go to my local hydraulic supply firm but i have seen them on Ebay to. The ones i used (can't remember sizes sorry) for large sump plug, small plugs and oil feed bango were all metric sized (even though fittings are not) but fitted nicely and are readly available and cheap.
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