Wassell Amal copies (2012)

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Wassells and quality do not normally go hand in hand, there are exceptions such as their EI made by Vape and the pistons made by JCC which are both good (rings and circlips need looking at) but a lot of the 'Lucas' stuff is just Chinese stuff in a Green box. So are their Concentric copies made by a good Wassell supplier or a bad one ?
 
Alan L said:
Hi,
Im yet to decide but I will probably go for Amal Premier.
The only comment I would make is that many posts seem to beat up the fact that Amals are quality items.
I would suggest they may be the best of a bad lot but in reality the are absolute crap.
The much vaunted Premiers are only making improvements to a very average design that should have always been incorporated from day one.
I imagine their is many an old Kawasaki 900 with carburettors as good as the day they were made and running in perfect tune.
The most cursory inspection of this forum will indicate that many of the posts revolve around premature wear and trying to get our Amals correctly tuned. We are all enthusiasts, however when Norton’s were new their market was riders who just wanted to get on an ride, not constantly tinker and fettle their bikes.
If Norton had of specified a carby of the same quality as the Mikunis and Kiehins that were fitted to their Japanese opposition Norton it may have contributed to norton survival (perhaps).
As such I don’t feel any particular brand loyalty to Amal other than keeping the bike as original as possible. I have to ask the question, why wouldn’t Wassel make as good a carburettor as Amal? Obviously with modern production methods they would easily be able to exceed the quality and dimensions of the 50 year old Amals they are copying. As the ‘challenger’ I can’t see they would have anything to gain by making an inferior product. Obviously Amal will always have the ability to command the higher price as ultimately they do have the name.
The intention of this post is not to claim that Wassel is better than Amal or visa versa but to encouraging us to be objective in our criticism
What do others think? Am I being too critical. Of course our bikes were somewhat anachronistic even when new though they did ‘fight above their weight but it doesn’t excuse poor quality carburettors and electrics
regards all
al
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Yes I think you are being too critical. Amal would have made their carbs from solid Unobtamium if the bike manufacturers would have been prepared to pay a little more. The same applies to Lucas.
If you think Japanese parts are so much better, then I suggest you try stripping & checking a set of Mikuni BSTs, as fitted OEM to Hinckley Triumphs & various Suzukis. I have rebuilt seven sets of these & even low milage (20,000 miles) ones have worn slide guides & worn needle jets (emulsion tubes) & all have been running with modern air filters.

Martyn.
 
I still have the original 932's on my '72. The biggest upgrade I did to them was to have the body bores trued and slides fitted with brass sleeves to keep wear to a minimum. That was about 20 years ago shortly after I got the bike. Extended ticklers were added, and the chokes removed/plugged.

I also fitted stay-up floats, Al float needles, and bumped the main jet up to a 240.

The only other thing to keep an eye on is the needle jet. Replace them as required. You will know when they are shot!!

The bike runs perfectly - starts easy, idles sweetly, and all transitions (idle circuit to needle circuit to main jet) are smooth as glass.
 
Kommando`s comment always seems a bit resentful towards specific Wassell product the vast majority of their product range comes from the exactly same supply chain as all the other main stream suppliers
 
Torontonian said:
The Wassell carb Jets are not screwed in tight enough. Dropped a jet assembly to the bottom of a float bowl and 8 stroked on one side , swapping plugs to get to some help in Northern Ont. , fully loaded with wife too. 8 m.m. , 1/4 " drive borrowed socket tightened up both assemblies back into place. 900 Kms. trip , only real problem. Lavigne rally. Tighten up your jets. As supplied no good.
Click to expand...
Do you know, funny old thing but, I would check everything through before installing a new carb! Everything with a hole or thread!
 
Alan L said:
Hi,
Im yet to decide but I will probably go for Amal Premier.
The only comment I would make is that many posts seem to beat up the fact that Amals are quality items.
I would suggest they may be the best of a bad lot but in reality the are absolute crap.
The much vaunted Premiers are only making improvements to a very average design that should have always been incorporated from day one.
I imagine their is many an old Kawasaki 900 with carburettors as good as the day they were made and running in perfect tune.
The most cursory inspection of this forum will indicate that many of the posts revolve around premature wear and trying to get our Amals correctly tuned. We are all enthusiasts, however when Norton’s were new their market was riders who just wanted to get on an ride, not constantly tinker and fettle their bikes.
If Norton had of specified a carby of the same quality as the Mikunis and Kiehins that were fitted to their Japanese opposition Norton it may have contributed to norton survival (perhaps).
As such I don’t feel any particular brand loyalty to Amal other than keeping the bike as original as possible. I have to ask the question, why wouldn’t Wassel make as good a carburettor as Amal? Obviously with modern production methods they would easily be able to exceed the quality and dimensions of the 50 year old Amals they are copying. As the ‘challenger’ I can’t see they would have anything to gain by making an inferior product. Obviously Amal will always have the ability to command the higher price as ultimately they do have the name.
The intention of this post is not to claim that Wassel is better than Amal or visa versa but to encouraging us to be objective in our criticism
What do others think? Am I being too critical. Of course our bikes were somewhat anachronistic even when new though they did ‘fight above their weight but it doesn’t excuse poor quality carburettors and electrics
regards all
al
Click to expand...
I am not sure why you think Japanese carbs don't wear....

Example, I had to change all four rubber diaphragms and needles on my FJ1200 at around 130,000 miles!

:rolleyes:
 
Alan L said:
Hi,
Im yet to decide but I will probably go for Amal Premier.
The only comment I would make is that many posts seem to beat up the fact that Amals are quality items.
I would suggest they may be the best of a bad lot but in reality the are absolute crap.
The much vaunted Premiers are only making improvements to a very average design that should have always been incorporated from day one.
I imagine their is many an old Kawasaki 900 with carburettors as good as the day they were made and running in perfect tune.
The most cursory inspection of this forum will indicate that many of the posts revolve around premature wear and trying to get our Amals correctly tuned. We are all enthusiasts, however when Norton’s were new their market was riders who just wanted to get on an ride, not constantly tinker and fettle their bikes.
If Norton had of specified a carby of the same quality as the Mikunis and Kiehins that were fitted to their Japanese opposition Norton it may have contributed to norton survival (perhaps).
As such I don’t feel any particular brand loyalty to Amal other than keeping the bike as original as possible. I have to ask the question, why wouldn’t Wassel make as good a carburettor as Amal? Obviously with modern production methods they would easily be able to exceed the quality and dimensions of the 50 year old Amals they are copying. As the ‘challenger’ I can’t see they would have anything to gain by making an inferior product. Obviously Amal will always have the ability to command the higher price as ultimately they do have the name.
The intention of this post is not to claim that Wassel is better than Amal or visa versa but to encouraging us to be objective in our criticism
What do others think? Am I being too critical. Of course our bikes were somewhat anachronistic even when new though they did ‘fight above their weight but it doesn’t excuse poor quality carburettors and electrics
regards all
al
Click to expand...
BTW, by choice, I run Mikunis!

I own two Amals, I have taken one off and I have the replacement Mikuni to fit on that bike. And on my '56 Ajay, I am considering changing the Mk1 Concentric for a Mikuni. It came on the bike, but it isn't very old, and I just had to put it in a press to get the flange usable!
 
Frankie17 said:
Kommando`s comment always seems a bit resentful towards specific Wassell product the vast majority of their product range comes from the exactly same supply chain as all the other main stream suppliers
Click to expand...
I have a brake caliper which is a copy of the AP racing CP2696, compared to a genuine AP one, quality is very similar with the exception of the seals, which are still usable. I have had this caliper apart to mill the back of it for spoke clearance on a Suzuki race bike.

Mine is unbranded, but when they came onto the market they were known to be commissioned by Wassell, the same caliper now sells under the Girling brand which I understand like Lucas is part of the Wassell dynasty these days, it still sells at a much lower price than the AP branded item.

It is still considerably cheaper to buy the Girling branded part and a pair of genuine AP seals!
 
Lockheed calipers are very nice good quality but supply is often sporadic , exclusive marketing through a limited number of retailers and their own website
somewhat controls the retail price batches are only produced by AP as and when demand builds

All Wassell have done is take the initiative and fill a gap in the market , we need choice and sometimes affordable products are knocked on the forums for the wrong reasons
if you have unlimited budget you can select to use the premium branded products

Look at it this way Wassell are keeping other suppliers honest if you have monopoly you can charge what you want

Burlen will vouch for that the introduction of Wassel carbs re instated Amal dealer discounts and kept prices affordable to the end user
 
Competition is always good for the reasons you state. But gaining a competitive advantage on price alone, at the expense of functionality, is not good.

I tried one of those calipers and took it off. I’ve since learned it was probably the seal design that was pushing the pistons back in too vigorously. But I don’t expect to have to change seals on new parts. And I expect brake system components to be perfect from the factory !

My biggest gripe with Wassell is their engine parts for Triumphs, very poor quality indeed in my experience. Often for no real gain, just the saving of a few pence, but that saving making the part unfit for purpose. Worse still, they seem to not check such things before flooding the global supply chain with said parts. Thus ensuring many years worth of supply to trip customers up!

I will NEVER buy Wassell engine parts by choice.
 
Fast Eddie said:
Competition is always good for the reasons you state. But gaining a competitive advantage on price alone, at the expense of functionality, is not good.

I tried one of those calipers and took it off. I’ve since learned it was probably the seal design that was pushing the pistons back in too vigorously. But I don’t expect to have to change seals on new parts. And I expect brake system components to be perfect from the factory !

My biggest gripe with Wassell is their engine parts for Triumphs, very poor quality indeed in my experience. Often for no real gain, just the saving of a few pence, but that saving making the part unfit for purpose. Worse still, they seem to not check such things before flooding the global supply chain with said parts. Thus ensuring many years worth of supply to trip customers up!

I will NEVER buy Wassell engine parts by choice.
Click to expand...

It took me three times to bleed a Wassell Girling caliper after initially trying to do it first time , I don't know why but I have no trouble with the genuine APs. It's ok now but I'm still not sure if I actually trust it.
 
Eddie

i have used the calipers and had no issues your comment on pistons returning too quickly ? once the brake pressure is released the seal returns to its original shape
and piston returns to starting position this is controlled by the fluid movement not the seal it is designed to deform under pressure then re form when released

if the seals do not leak they will work , i have read some of the comments on various forums regarding these calipers hard to bleed pistons not returning etc
normally down to badly adjusted master cylinder push rods leaking hoses banjos / wrong bore size of master etc

A recent batch of the Harris 13mm master cylinders had transfer ports drilled in the wrong place as posted on britbike forum this was also a Wassell caliper problem ?

Wassell triumph engine parts JCC pistons / Newman cams / R&R con rods / Billet alloy pushrods / Uk Gaskets / Regina primary chains / Surflex clutch plates in 2021 does quality get any better ????
 
Frankie17 said:
Eddie

i have used the calipers and had no issues your comment on pistons returning too quickly ? once the brake pressure is released the seal returns to its original shape
and piston returns to starting position this is controlled by the fluid movement not the seal it is designed to deform under pressure then re form when released

if the seals do not leak they will work , i have read some of the comments on various forums regarding these calipers hard to bleed pistons not returning etc
normally down to badly adjusted master cylinder push rods leaking hoses banjos / wrong bore size of master etc

A recent batch of the Harris 13mm master cylinders had transfer ports drilled in the wrong place as posted on britbike forum this was also a Wassell caliper problem ?

Wassell triumph engine parts JCC pistons / Newman cams / R&R con rods / Billet alloy pushrods / Uk Gaskets / Regina primary chains / Surflex clutch plates in 2021 does quality get any better ????
Click to expand...

I’m not sure why you site a Harris quality failure and sarcastically ask if it’s a Wassell failure? Of course it’s not!

I presume you have some affiliation to Wassel, so, on the off chance you’re actually interested rather than just defending, I’ll give you some very recent examples:

Calipers: I don’t believe you’re entirely correct when you say ‘if the seals don’t leak they’re fine’ because caliper seals have a greater functionality than that, like pulling the pads off of the disc slightly when pressure is released. There were some detailed discussion about it on this forum. In my case I was simply trying to replace a perfectly good stock iron caliper, everything worked fine, but I could not get the Girling one to work properly at all. It was a swine to bleed, and the pistons retracted too far creating excess lever travel on the first pull next time.

Pistons: You’re quite right, they’re good. But the rings caused bad oil burning.

Pushrods: Wrong internal radius (too small) causing failure.

Pushrods: Bought as a set of four. Four different lengths.

Gaskets: Became crushed and brittle and failed, in less than 2,000 miles.

Primary chain tensioner: Made from wrong grade material, opened up and failed around the retaining pin, after less than 1.000 miles, I’ve since learned this is a common failure.

The piston rings were replaced by Goetze from AN. All other engine parts were replaced by Harris parts. All good since.
 
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i will stand by my comment caliper seals are designed to de form under pressure and re form when pressure is released also not leak whilst in operation

if master cylinder ratio and adjustment is correct the fluid transfer required to apply brake pressure will return when released moving the piston an equal amount
if this did not happen no calipers would function correctly if pistons are too tight in bore brake will drag when released if piston returns too far
i would look at master cylinder adjustment and air leaks in the system air will compress under pressure and allow piston to travel further on release ( hence your extra movement )
on the return stroke brake fluid does not compress under normal loads air does and allows piston to travel further on return

i assume most of the above Wassell items were bought via a dealer

dealers have choice what lines to stock and many online sellers work on price alone Wassell often have two options for each product pushrods / gaskets / ring sets are a good example the Goetze rings you purchased from AN would have possibly come from Wassell as they distribute the Goetze product

for information having held trade accounts with Wassell Harris MCA Velo you learn to sort the good from the bad each supplier has good and bad within their product ranges
 
Frankie17 said:
i will stand by my comment caliper seals are designed to de form under pressure and re form when pressure is released also not leak whilst in operation

if master cylinder ratio and adjustment is correct the fluid transfer required to apply brake pressure will return when released moving the piston an equal amount
if this did not happen no calipers would function correctly if pistons are too tight in bore brake will drag when released if piston returns too far
i would look at master cylinder adjustment and air leaks in the system air will compress under pressure and allow piston to travel further on release ( hence your extra movement )
on the return stroke brake fluid does not compress under normal loads air does and allows piston to travel further on return
Click to expand...

As I said, I removed a perfectly functioning stock iron caliper, so the rest of the brake system was also perfectly functioning. But the Girling caliper worked as a described previously. So, in this case, the fault was definitely within the caliper.

As you say, the seals play an integral part in piston operation. And as others have said already, changing Girling seals for genuine AP seals solves the problem. So, on balance, given the available info, it’s seems fairly clear that something is wrong with the Girling seals.

As I mentioned earlier, the problem with Wassells model is that they have flooded the supply chain with these things, so even if they did listen and did improve the seals, an end user has no way of knowing what they’re buying from a retailer, and that’s likely to last a LONG time until the supply chain is purged. This is exactly the case with their good piston / bad rings offerings.

Your point about retailers and having a range of quality available is 100% bang on IMHO. This is why I’d alway recommend only a select few retailers to people who might ask. I’d also generally avoid unknown sellers on eBay etc. The point we’d differ on is when I am buying important parts from my short list of trusted sellers I always ask for the best option and always specify ‘not Wassell’ where possible!

We can debate that last point all day long, you’ll come up with examples of good parts and I’ll counter with examples of bad experience, etc. But I have been buying motorcyle parts for 40 years. And over time we all build up a mental data base of what works well, what causes us grief, etc. And my data base drives my choices. Had Wassell parts proved good over the years, I’d be an ardent fan. But they haven’t, so I’m not. Simple as that really.
 
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We could debate this all day long you are pretty adamant the Girling stuff does not function and to you very clear the seals are not fit for purpose

i have used the Girling calipers and fitted the repair kits ( seals and pistons ) in to genuine A p Caliper bodies with no problems when bled correctly they work as designed

The Business model Wassells adopt to flood the market with product is not strictly true they just tend to hold stock , dealing with Harris or Velo has always been feast or famine for dealers
batch manufactured to order then no stock for long periods , if dealers have nothing to sell for 9 months of the year they have no business
 
A fair repost sir.

I often say that I’m a big believer in “agreeing to disagree” at the point where both sides have made their cases but agreement is still missing.

Seems we’re at that point to me. And all without any name calling or falling out!
 
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almost bought the wassel carbs..........almost.... when i removed single mikuni and went to 2 carbs got new amals instead the caliper kept popping up in my haid...on the other hand the wassell alternator rotors i put on the A65 and T120 are great
 
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