Villiers 2T powered Norton?

After seeing the "Class D" thread today, I browsed the other bikes on that auction site. One of them was really odd. It looked like a James or Francis Barnett frame, but it had a tank with a "Norton" cast logo badge and a Villiers engine and gearbox. The engine looked like the Villiers "2T', a very popular 250cc twin used by many of the small manufacturers in the UK.

It was described as a "barn find" and was in very poor shape.

Does anyone know of a 250cc 2-stoke twin Norton? The Jubilee 250 was a 4-stroke as I remember, and I'm not aware of any Villiers-powered Nortons being made.

I can't see the picture.

Egad & Forsooth .



a Vilton . Those Little tanks'd be good ' custom ' on a Commando . If you cant find a Hi rider one .

The ole Norton tank on a James motorcycle trick ?

Remember that the AMC stable included Norton, James and FrancisBarnett by then,
including others too.
The Jubilees etc shared some parts, including frames etc with the Villiers powered models,
so swapping bits isn't too difficult in theory - although I've not tried it myself.

It would be interesting if it had quoted the Villiers engine number.
Villiers had quite a systematic way of numbering things, to identify what the engine was fitted to.

First, for the life of me I cannot see another exhaust port in the photo, so, therefore it is not a 2T twin.
It looks either it has a Norton tan or the Norton badges fitted to another tank, so, quite frankly made to deceive, as Norton did not as far as I am aware never fitted a Villiers engine to any of their frames.

You're right, Bernhardt- I didn't look clsely enough. It's probably the 9E engine, a 197cc single. Villiers sold engine/gearbox units to a lot of the smaller manufacturers, but AMC made their own for the F-B and James lines
.

frankdamp said:

Villiers sold engine/gearbox units to a lot of the smaller manufacturers, but AMC made their own for the F-B and James lines
.

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Only after a certain point - somewhere in the late 1950s.
Prior to that year, they used Villiers engines.

Thats why I said it would be interesting to see the engine number.
That whole bike, minus the tank, looks somewhat like a FB I used to have.
Learned to ride on it as a kid, although it was well past its best by then.

There is a story to that 'making their own' too.
As you would expect from AMC...
They figured they could do it cheaper, but the quality control on the Italian made AMC 2 strokes was awful,
and they ended up getting Villiers to assemble them, so it was done right.

In answer to my question send to the seller, he replied; "I originally listed it as a twin cylinder as I believed it to be Norton jubilee, since all the emails and interest I've been told it's a 250 single cylinder 2stroke, it's got two spark plugs in the head though so very confused"

As far as I remember, the 2T twin was the only 250cc engine Villiers made until the much later Starmaker appeared. Their biggest single before that was the 9E. The Starmaker first appeared in a production bike, the AJS Stormer, in 1970 or 71.

Getting the Starmaker to run reliably without needing Castrol R lubricant was a big problem. I rode the prototype Stormer many miles on regular 2-stroke mixture, but we were repeatedly having to replace the cylinder barrel, sometimes after only 200 miles on the street, due to "furrowing". Combustion was uneven at low throttle openings and the area around the exhaust port got very hot (glowing red). The piston rings would momentarily weld themselves to the bridge in the middle of the port, then break loose. The piston would then wobble in the bore as it moved upwards and make circumferential grooves about 0.2" apart. They were about 1/3 the way around the barrel, centered at the exhaust port. Cooling fins around the exhaust port would get very hot also, then crack and break off.

Having to shake the bike to re-mix the Castrol R (vegetable oil) and the gas after being shut off for an hour or more was a real pain. It would have killed the Stormer's sales perfomance. The R&D folks were still fighting that battle to solve the problem when I emigrated.

Bernhard said:

it's got two spark plugs in the head though so very confused"

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Sounds like someone has stuck a spark plug in the hole intended for the decompressor.

And someone who can't recognise a single or twin cylinder might easily be confused....

frankdamp said:

You're right, Bernhardt- I didn't look clsely enough. It's probably the 9E engine, a 197cc single. Villiers sold engine/gearbox units to a lot of the smaller manufacturers, but AMC made their own for the F-B and James lines
.

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not quite 100% right, as James used the 2T engine in their 250 Superswift and also in 1954/55 Colonel 225cc Villiers single cylinder, Francis Barnett was taken over by Associated Motor Cycles in 1947 and combined with James in 1957. The combined firm remained in business until 1966.
James and F-B both used as Villiers and, later, AMC two-stroke engines sometime in their production;

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Cycle_Co

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francis-Barnett

http://www.gracesguide.co.uk/Francis-Barnett

Bernhard:

In 1954, I was still in high school (age 13). I started my engineering apprenticeship with English Electric Aviation in May '58 and graduated with a B.S. in Mechanical Engineering in July '65. I went to N-V in late '66 (or maybe early '67) and emigrated to the US in July '68.

That "Norton" is certainly an odd beast. I don't remember any 2-strokes ever being made under the Norton name. Even within the resurrectd Norton-Villiers company, the two-stroke machines were all branded as "AJS". I think the "Stormer" was the only one marketed before the company closed down as a manufacturer. It was the last project I worked on before emigrating and I don't think it went on sale until 1971. If I were to get back to bike ownership, a refurbishable Stormer would be of interest, but, as I'm closing in on 75 years old, I doubt I'll be doing that!

frankdamp said:

That "Norton" is certainly an odd beast. !

Click to expand...

Someone has simply slotted a Norton tank off one of the lightweights onto what is probably a James, or it could be a FB.

As already said, James and FB shared a lot of parts with what was to become the Norton Jubilee and Navigator etc range. The frame is totally the same (?), and the tanks are quite similar.

Not a Norvil , then . unfortunately . :twisted:

All the AMC brand names died in the 1966 collapse. After Dennis Poore resurrected Norton and tied it to Villiers, a company he already owned, he also revived the AJS name for use on two-stroke machines. We also made just one "Matchless", in 1968. N-V sponsored 4-person team in the International Six-day Trial, made up of Royal Air Force Motorcycle Club members. Three of the bikes were ealy model 250cc Stormers and used the AJS name. The fourth had a 350cc version of the Starmaker engine and that bike was badged as a Matchless. I'm not quite sure if they had the old gas-tank design we used on the works M-X bikes or whether the production Stormer tank was used. All 4 had mufflers to make them "street quiet".

It was mentioned that Villiers didn't make a 250 single, apart from the Starmaker and it's derivatives. At one stage in the early 70s I had a 250 Greeves, from about the mid sixties, which had a 250cc Villiers single cylinder motor. I think it was similar to the motors used in trials bikes, although mine was fully road equipped. It would do about 75 to 80mph absolutely flat strap, it was very smooth, with a nice flat torque curve, surprisingly. Finally this motor met it's maker and was replaced with a 350 Triumph (T21 maybe?) engine, whereupon the bike was registered as a "Grumph". Caused some amusement at the testing station!!

Finally Stormers were definitely on sale in 1970, I remember seeing them getting packed.
cheers
wakeup