Vented rear drum brake

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I managed to get my standard rear drum brake to work ok but only for a few initial dabs, then it suffers from fade. RGM advised drilling three 1 inch holes in the rear of the brake drum and venting the brake plate. I would prefer to vent the brake plate to the same pattern as the Norvil Proddie racer, and rivet gauze over the holes. I have a few questions:

Has anyone vented their rear drum and is it worth doing?

Has anyone fitted harder linings (RGM sells these on an exchange basis) and do these make a difference?

Does someone have a photo of a factory-ventilated rear brake plate that they wouldn't mind posting, please?

Dave
 
I vented my rear drum and it seems to have reduced fade on stock Ferodo linings. Norvil do a kit for the vent plates and gauze but IMHO it's very pricey for what you get, so I made my own in stainless.

I have the CAD drawings for the plate and cutout, PM me if you want them and I'll email them to you. I can also do them for you as a PDF if you don't have a CAD package. for the cutout on the plate I just printed it full size on to a self adhesive lable, stuck them on the brake plate and chain-drilled it.

There's some reasonable pictures of a factory PR here: http://jamiewaters.com/Frame-5-motorcyclespage5.html?refresh=1221491058430
 
"I have the CAD drawings for the plate and cutout, PM me if you want them and I'll email them to you. I can also do them for you as a PDF if you don't have a CAD package. for the cutout on the plate I just printed it full size on to a self adhesive lable, stuck them on the brake plate and chain-drilled it."

Mike — thanks very much for that reply! I will PM you about your drawings.

Dave
 
Ron — thanks very much for the photo, which shows the pattern of the holes and the location of the rivets and wire gauze very well. Do you have a Proddie Racer yourself? I'd love to ride one to see what it's like.

With your photo and Mike's CAD drawings, I should be able to do a decent job.

Much appreciated!

Dave
 
After making my rear sets based on the original hangers I had 4 goes at mounting a stop light switch,that idea never occured to me :roll: . I went with a cable brake in the end ,was seriosly thinking about using a rod Dave,but just found a cable easier. The rear brake is still totally #*%*@# useless,although a shorter pedal did improve it slightly but required more pressure with alot less foot travel.The standard drum must be made out of steel which is probably 1/2 the problem,please post reply if you find a miracle cure :wink:
 
Do you have a Proddie Racer yourself

No, but I did babysit one for a few months about 10 years ago while the owner returned to New Zealand. Gave me some time to take a close look at the subtle and not-so-subtle differences between a PR and a tarted up Roadster. The website I posted earlier has some really nice shots of what I believe to be an original PR that shows a lot of the factory mods.

I had the opportunity to buy a 2 year old production racer in '73 when I bought my MkV Roadster. Same money. I thought the dealer was nuts! It looked good, but had 8,000 miles on it.

I just have the usual replica stuff on my 850 hot rod.
 
Jim — you may be right in recommending hub skimming and machining of the shoes, although I have managed to get the brake to work well initially — I can get the tyre to squeal — but after the first few applications, it begins to fade. Would this not indicate that the shoes are bedded in to the hub ok, but overheating is the problem? Perhaps I am expecting too much from this brake. I have heard nothing but praise for Vintage Brake. Unfortunately, we don't have their equivalent on our island but I could try to find someone who can spin a hub and brake plate on their lathe. Vintage may also use superior friction material in the brake shoes, which could be a factor.

Ludwig — thanks for your suggestion. I like your innovative approach, and it would be interesting to experiment with a hydraulic solution. I am minded to stick with mechanical operation for the moment, because if other owners can get their rear brakes to work well, then there's no reason why mine can't!

I will let you guys know how I get on, and thanks for the tips!
 
Living in Ireland makes it impractical for you to ship to California. I would contact Mike Morris of Vintage brake. As Mike is a very nice guy, I'm certain he would share his secrets with you. The rear Commando drum brake will work and work well if setup properly. Good luck and keep us posted.
 
Going away after a few initial dabs doesn't sound like heat fade.
Have you tried to touch the drum after the first failed stop? The temperature at the lining surface (drum OD) would be above 200° F if it's heat.
I suspect you don't have good contact, all the comments on skimming etc. are spot on.
Venting the drum is useful for a few reasons:
1. makes you feel like you accomplished something (rider confidence = good!)
2. frightens the other riders (competing rider confidence = bad!)
3. reduces unsprung weight
4. reduces temp build-up
However, this isn't as effective as it appears, and yes the factory(ies) haven't always done their homework on this.
Air only flows from a high pressure area to a low pressure area.
Given the picture: which is which?
The answer: there may not be any, the pressure differential may only occur with changes in air flowing over the bike, and even reverse at speeds.
The ideal is to pull air in centrally and exit through holes in the drum OD. The entry can be anywhere in the backing plate, but if the plate is largely masked by the swing-arm, etc. you'll need a horn extending from the plate into the airstream (like the 1971-72 BSA front brake). To prevent the plate from cracking, several holes in an arc or a pattern of 1/8" holes in the same spot can be fed by a single horn, which can be secured by weld, small screws, etc.
For the drum not to simply crack or distort, very little of the rim structure can be removed, and that very carefully. The holes have to be quite small, and widely spaced from each other, from the outer edge, and the radius where the rim joins the web.
How many holes? If the rim is 1" wide, the usable width may be only 3/4" (1/8" safety on either side). A 7" OD drum by 1" wide has 16.5 square inches of available friction surface.
A single 1.5" entry (1.77 square inch area) will make quite a difference in internal air temperature, especially if it's pressurized.
Dividing this into 5/32" (.15625" or 4mm) rim holes: alternating 1 across and 2 across (to make shoe contact discontinuous) times 40 rows (easy to do - line them up with the spokes), over 1/2" apart on the circumference, makes 60 holes, total area 1.15 square inches, about the same as a 1-3/16" hole (and only 5.2% of the rim surface, leaving 94.8% for structure).

I've seen comments that the holes at the edge should be closer (more numerous) than the holes at the radius by perhaps 1.5:1 or 2:1, since the edge is always hotter (it has no heat transfer by conduction to the drum body), but it's also the weakest area, so I'm not sure it's safe. The holes should be lightly counter-sunk then radius from both sides both to prevent cracks and improve air-flow. Since the drum interior is lightly pressurized, air will always from toward the largest exit (the drum OD), and carry heat away with it.
If the drum is vented on the vertical (web) surface, it's still a good idea to use a horn entry for the backing plate since otherwise air-flow past the 2 sides may be very similar, result: no air through the drum.

Going to the pictured plate with holes and screens: a simple yarn test will show you if you have air circulation - at high speed the tuft positioned at one set of holes will pull straight back, and the other will flutter. If both behave alike flow is minimal.
If you want minimal change in thickness (no extended horn), a simple angled ramp out of folded 1/32" aluminum can be secured over the screen. Point one forward (high pressure), and one backward (induced vacuum at the open for low pressure), although I suspect that the forward-facing scoop does most of the work.
 
Les, thanks for the referral, and thanks, Panic, for your comprehensive account on venting brake drums! You re-emphasised the point that skimming and matching shoes to the drum are important, and I should really tackle this first. At least then I will know that the shoes are making full contact with a completely round and even surface. Perhaps also one shoe is leading slightly rather than both being actuated at the same time. My task now is to find someone in Ireland who is able and willing to do this. I will let you know how I get on. :D
 
It would seem to me like the right compound would be a great place to start,How worn would most drums get,as you have to replace the sprocket as well as drum,you also can't turn aset of shoes that already fit in a drum to make them fit any better,you need oversize shoes to start with. Vintage brake only riveted the linings on so may be the lining he used wasn't bondable.In regard to the holes in the drum it must be possible to increase the surface area by drilling holes a certain size{as panic was saying}to give more cooling area. Maybe your ABS sensor is damaged :p :p
 
I said I would post an update to the problem of my ineffective rear drum brake. I think I've found the problem.

I tested the drum for run-out with a dial test indicator on the bench and it is perfectly round and circular, with a nice smooth surface.

But, I noticed that the brake shoes, replaced 1000 miles ago, had wear marks showing that the shoes were cocked in the drum. The left front side of one and the right rear side of the other were unworn (the unworn parts are shaped like a narrow vee, extending to about 20% of the surface of each shoe). I placed the brake plate on the lathe bed, with the centre mounted on a ball race, so that everything was absolutely flat and parallel, and the brake plate is visibly warped. I didn't even bother to measure it. No wonder the brake was poor. It must have been like that from new, since I can't see any marks from a previous bang.

This means applying the money spanner for a new brake plate and shoes. If Mick Hemmings can't find one in his attic this afternoon, no-one else has one, so I may have to try out Les Emery's alloy replacement brake plate at £75 plus VAT to see how it works!

One final problem was that the drum was not sitting squarely on the hub. This resulted in a very slight but nonetheless visible wobble. The flanges at the base of two of the paddles appear to have been sitting on the rubbers, which were slightly proud of the hub surface. This problem is now sorted and the spacer on the inside of the drum is now sitting flat against the wheel bearing in the hub.

Thanks again for all your posts, and I will let you know how the new brake plate and shoes work out. So much for me thinking that this was just brake fade. :oops:
 
Brake plate material is alloy, or steel stamping? If steel it may be straightened.
Are the cam and anchor post at 90° to the plate surface but it's "cocked" on the hub, or are they angled?
How does the plate seat in the hub?
 
Hi Panic — since my last post, my thoughts were like yours. Your post encouraged me to bend the thing! The plate is a steel stamping. I made up two lengths of straight bar about 10" long, with flanges so they could sit flat, and fitted them snug into two holes in the plate: brake shoe pivot, and brake cam. I bolted up the spindle and dummy spindle in the axle hole. Then I could see and get a measurement of how much each axis was 'off' in relation to one another.

The centre part (axle) was off in relation to the two others in just one direction (from top to bottom, when assembled in the wheel). I clamped the centre part of the plate between two flat circular alloy blocks 1" thick in the vice. I tweaked the plate with a tyre lever till I eventually managed to get all the shafts to line up reasonably parallel. It's a pretty crude fix really but we'll see how it works. I will report back!

Dave
 
Just a guess: not likely that the plate was damaged in a wreck etc. It may just not be rigid enough to withstand 100,000 hard lever applications over 35 years, and (being steel) complied rather than broke.
I don't think it has to be mathematically exact to improve function substantially - new ones were probably very close but not to within seconds of arc.
If I'm right it should remain in the new shape for another 10 years, but look closely for tiny wrinkles where the bends were needed indicating potential cracks - I don't think so, but better safe.
 
Panic — again, you've made some good points. I can see the poor old thing flexing when I apply the brake. I'll live with it for the time being. Ideally, I would like to convert to a one piece 17 mm spindle (do-able) and an aluminium brake plate. I wonder has anyone used Norvil's replacement alloy brake plate ...
 
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