Unfit for use

I recently purchased a Triumph 750 big bore kit from a distributor and it turns out the barrel of the part is defective to the point that it's not usable in its state out of the box. The tappet guide block bore is .030" off center, and both lifters hit the drive side inlet cam lobe.

The distributor is claiming their 30 day return window has passed, and they will help guide me through dealing directly with the manufacturer for a warranty claim on my dime. I don't see how anyone can put a big bore kit onto a motor that reasonably needs quite a bit of machine work to fit, crank rebalanced, etc, etc, etc within a month. The crank rebalance took 3 months itself once I could send the pistons to the crank shop. I'm very disappointed with the distributor. I never ask for discounts so I can reasonably expect good service. I've paid full pop to get shined by this shop.

I'm trying to let this play out before I roll out the nuclear option and "name names", because that's not going to help my cause or make my situation better.

What's the best way to proceed? So far the barrel checks out in all the other dimensions, and they are well known (as I now know) for a multitude of other defects not found on this barrel, and getting a better barrel is not a foregone conclusion.

I have a milling machine, the tools, and the know how to rebore the cylinder flange to refit the tappet block appropriately.

Do I spent the time and money to send this back, hoping it's covered and I get a better one? Is getting a part fit for purpose even a reasonable expectation? For our overseas friends, the US has very little consumer protection. "Land of the Free, Home of the Brave" and all that...

Leave the barrel and crankcase as is and get 2 tappet blocks made with the lifter holes 30 thou off centre.

kommando said:

Leave the barrel and crankcase as is and get 2 tappet blocks made with the lifter holes 30 thou off centre.

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There's not enough room within the pushrod tube for an eccentric tappet block.

The best way I've thought of redoing it is to machine an oversize tappet block bore at the center, make a steel "top hat" sleeve, press it in, ream to standard bore size, knock in a stock tappet block. Not the end of the world, but dang, on a brand new part??? Probably easier than dealing with a warranty claim though.

That would work but remember the tappet blocks are not vertical but angled slightly inwards.

This is an ugly, no win deal.
The distributer didn't make the part, they distributed it. Chances are their ability to return it has passed also.
What's a reasonable time they should accept a return?
They are offering to walk you through the return process, but still costs money. I get it.
I deal with this in my construction business more than I care for. I get it, but still don't like it.
I try to inspect everything within the return time. but, spit happens.
I would be looking at whatever machining mods and the satisfaction with the end result.
If I couldn't honestly answer in the positive, I would be sending it back and sucking up the costs.

MichaelB said:

The distributer didn't make the part, they distributed it. Chances are their ability to return it has passed also.

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Could be, but I'm not looking for a return. I want a good barrel and kit. If the chances for a warranty return for me are still open, then I'd have trouble believing a warranty window for them is shut. I suspect they just don't want to deal with it. Their unwillingness makes me wonder how the manufacturer will treat an end user with absolutely no leverage.

MichaelB said:

I try to inspect everything within the return time. but, spit happens.

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I inspected everything I could without a complete dry build, as soon as it showed up. Piston clearance, bore straightness and parallelism. When the barrel is fitted on the cases with cams and followers, the lifters are .015" too far to the timing side to hit their lobes independently. I had to get all the way to a complete bottom end and half a top end before that could be measured.

MichaelB said:

If I couldn't honestly answer in the positive, I would be sending it back and sucking up the costs.

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A usable replacement isn't assured. A google search of the kit in question shows several barrels with the same problem (obvious due to the same-as-mine tappet block set screw's off-center position) on sites selling the kit! Maybe this barrel has just been around the block a dozen times!!

Man, I get it. I've been a warranty tech for a manufacturer (the guy getting his hands dirty, not in a call center), and dealt with end-users as well as dealers on an all-day every-day basis. It's not a good spot, but to me, the only way to make it all work out from everyone's perspective, is if there's a legitimate defect, replace it, and as soon and as painlessly as possible. Anything less is pissing in the well.

kommando said:

That would work but remember the tappet blocks are not vertical but angled slightly inwards.

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Yea. I think like 2.5 or 3 degrees. I would locate it all on the mill before any cuts, for sure!

Remember the customer is always wrong and most venders are fine until there is a problem and will try and handball that straight away.

Once you touch or modify the part you truly own it, that would be the new part you bought and payed for as a new part fit for purpose.

(A 30 day warranty is bogus but so would querying a part 6 months later etc.)

If you have proof of purchase the vender who accepted money for gain (profit) should show some professionalism and contact their supplier not you.
If they will not you should (imho) unless you are happy with a what will be bodged new part most likely thinner at the outer part of the tappet block flange wall.

If the part was that flakey (unless free) it does not say much for pride of manufacture or QC.

I'll bet there are maybe 2 out of 10 buyers of parts like that, that would have the parts test fitted and inspected for precision, within a 30-day window. That's certainly no the reseller's fault, unless they've been hounded about selling these defective parts more than a few times. Yes, the fault is ultimately the manufacturer's, and they should absolutely be named to save others the pain.

I can see that, buy a new Toyota, its not fit for purpose and the dealership gives you the phone number in Japan.

$1300 exhaust system, the vender of course did not reply to a polite email.

I get very frustrated with all after market parts. Motorcycles or Cars, It's a crap shoot in todays world!

Time Warp said:

If they will not you should (imho) unless you are happy with a what will be bodged new part most likely thinner at the outer part of the tappet block flange wall.

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I'm not worried about the quality of repair I can pull off. It will be a relatively easy job, and there is plenty of metal to take it out to where it needs to be, but yes, once it's my baby, it's my baby.

grandpaul said:

I'll bet there are maybe 2 out of 10 buyers of parts like that, that would have the parts test fitted and inspected for precision, within a 30-day window.

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Well, that to me is the crux here. Do I just accept that this is business as usual and modify the part? Do I do that for every part for here on out? I guess I've just been lucky that I've, up until a few years ago, had a dealer to go talk to in person, who would give me honest advice and stand behind that advice. Sell me a new part or tell me to dig one out of the used bin upstairs.

Is that service just no longer applicable?

grandpaul said:

they should absolutely be named to save others the pain.

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All in due time. I'm going to give everyone time to let everything play out. I'm trying to be as objective as possible without being taken for a ride.

You have to wonder about some modern parts.
The who knows how old (60+ years ?) Wellworthy ALFIN cylinder for my TR6, a work of art.

I would suggest showing the supplier that photo if you have not already done so, it looks 'miles out, feel free to replace it miles out.
The rest looks decent visually but that offset has to be QC fail and dispatch surely.

Time Warp said:

I would suggest showing the supplier that photo if you have not already done so, it looks 'miles out, feel free to replace it miles out.
The rest looks decent visually but that offset has to be QC fail and dispatch surely.

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The supplier has seen the photo.

I'm disappointed at myself I didn't catch it, but you can't judge locations if you don't know the starting reference point. It's only about .020" from working fine, even if it looks miles out.

As an aside, are you sure it’s (only) the tappet block holes?

It could be the cam lobes.

Or that the cam as a whole needs moving and shimming.

Or a combination of the above.

Thankfully here in UK we have the Sale of Goods Act to assist us with situations like this. New products must be of a merchantable quality, and in addition manufacturers can’t just hide behind a limited time warranty. As an example it’s along the lines of what can reasonably be the expected lifespan of something - you wouldn’t expect a TV to only last 2-3 years, or a refrigerator only 5. So when my home telephone answer machine failed 30 months from purchase I returned it along with the relevant proof of purchase, stated it wasn’t reasonable for it to fail so soon and got a new one in exchange. A reputable supplier has to consider good will in cases like yours, but perhaps they just don’t give a sh*t!

Fast Eddie said:

As an aside, are you sure it’s (only) the tappet block holes?

It could be the cam lobes.

Or that the cam as a whole needs moving and shimming.

Or a combination of the above.

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I checked the new cams against the old, stock Triumph cams and the new ones are correct, with the lobes even being a little narrower, so a harder target to miss with a stock width tappet. That was the first thing I checked when this problem popped up.

Another possible fix (similar to what you mention) is to fit new cam bushings with thinner timing side flanges and move the whole shebang over to fit the tappets. It would be preferable to have all pushrod tube mating faces perpendicular to the pushrod tube, which that approach would not feature. But really, is it a Triumph without leaky pushrod tubes?!?

Flatspot said:

Thankfully here in UK we have the Sale of Goods Act to assist us with situations like this. New products must be of a merchantable quality, and in addition manufacturers can’t just hide behind a limited time warranty. As an example it’s along the lines of what can reasonably be the expected lifespan of something - you wouldn’t expect a TV to only last 2-3 years, or a refrigerator only 5. So when my home telephone answer machine failed 30 months from purchase I returned it along with the relevant proof of purchase, stated it wasn’t reasonable for it to fail so soon and got a new one in exchange. A reputable supplier has to consider good will in cases like yours, but perhaps they just don’t give a sh*t!

Click to expand...

In the US we rely on the judicial system to hold those to account. You're more or less allowed to sell whatever you can get away with until a judge says otherwise, and then you can go to a business-friendly district, appeal, get an injunction on the previous judgement and keep right on doing what you're doing until another judge (or your conscience) says stop. Repeat ad nauseum.

The house I bought a couple years ago had some issues with a furnace (an operable furnace is a legal requirement for a house sale or rental in the state). Previous to the sale, the home inspector couldn't get the pilot light lit. We asked the owner specifically if it worked to which he said it did. The owner is legally obligated to disclose all known issues with the house in writing, as part of the sale contract. He did not disclose a non-functioning furnace. Once we moved in and found the furnace to be completely rusted out, the furnace repair guy said, "Oh yea, I remember the old owner. I was trying to tell him this thing was rotten and that using the furnace would permeate the house with carbon monoxide and kill everyone inside, but he didn't want to spend the money". We took the old owner to court. The judge found in his favor because, according to real estate case law, we should have followed up more aggressively on the home inspection. Hmmm.

Legal wrestling is really a way of life over here. Smells nice too.

Getting quality parts is EXTREMELY DIFFICULT.

t ingermanson said:

I checked the new cams against the old, stock Triumph cams and the new ones are correct, with the lobes even being a little narrower, so a harder target to miss with a stock width tappet. That was the first thing I checked when this problem popped up.

Another possible fix (similar to what you mention) is to fit new cam bushings with thinner timing side flanges and move the whole shebang over to fit the tappets. It would be preferable to have all pushrod tube mating faces perpendicular to the pushrod tube, which that approach would not feature. But really, is it a Triumph without leaky pushrod tubes?!?

In the US we rely on the judicial system to hold those to account. You're more or less allowed to sell whatever you can get away with until a judge says otherwise, and then you can go to a business-friendly district, appeal, get an injunction on the previous judgement and keep right on doing what you're doing until another judge (or your conscience) says stop. Repeat ad nauseum.

The house I bought a couple years ago had some issues with a furnace (an operable furnace is a legal requirement for a house sale or rental in the state). Previous to the sale, the home inspector couldn't get the pilot light lit. We asked the owner specifically if it worked to which he said it did. The owner is legally obligated to disclose all known issues with the house in writing, as part of the sale contract. He did not disclose a non-functioning furnace. Once we moved in and found the furnace to be completely rusted out, the furnace repair guy said, "Oh yea, I remember the old owner. I was trying to tell him this thing was rotten and that using the furnace would permeate the house with carbon monoxide and kill everyone inside, but he didn't want to spend the money". We took the old owner to court. The judge found in his favor because, according to real estate case law, we should have followed up more aggressively on the home inspection. Hmmm.

Legal wrestling is really a way of life over here. Smells nice too.

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I think if I were in your shoes I would use a modified cam bush as you suggest

The best way to deal with insolent slobs , is the old ' brick in the handbag ' deal . But you can dispense with the handbag .
No need to enter comunications , wait at the front window , and hurl at supersillious twat .

I talked to someone much more expert than I, and he reminded me of the following:

1) I have run not these cases as a motor before. They are a replacement (non-matching) set for the ones I cracked.
2) Triumph cases are not "works of art" (in his words), and I didn't give them a thorough check and measure before putting them together, because I was too preoccupied with concentric main bearings.
3) The new cam bushes being dimensionally perfect are not a forgone conclusion. They are what locate the cams, and a thicker or thinner flange (known problem) can be a factor.
4) Triumph repop parts are not made by a single vendor, but by a couple dozen manufacturers over the world.
5) All these parts were manufactured (supposedly) to an original drawing, to a tolerance. Not all running changes made it to a drawing.
6) A tolerance stack can combine a bunch of passing parts into an inoperable assembly.
7) The previous owner wild card.

Anyone messing with these motors should know these things. I do, but sometimes it's hard to remember to be as clear-headed and humble as I should be when dealing with this stuff. I was honestly having a rotten week, so it may have been all too easy to blame something and someone else.

I remeasured the tappet block location. Using the two studs it should be centered between, it's .030" out as before, but only one of those studs is a locating stud with the sleeve over it. When I only use that as the reference point against a drawing of the barrel, it's only .022" off. Still off, but much closer to the .015" of lateral cam movement needed to get this thing working! The location of the other stud is basically immaterial as long as it goes through the respectively larger stud hole.

I have decided to remove and fit known and measured new cam bushings, and measure the timing-side case for the depth of counterbore that locates the bushing flange, which locates the cam. The cams' lobes are not centered exactly over the cases' seam, and they should be. Pretty close, but tough to measure. Could they be off by .008"? Heck yea, they could. Those two variables could be all it would take.

With careful measuring and reassembly, this thing might just be fine. The barrel may be out of "perfect", but perhaps within an allowable amount, and there's a couple/few other factors at work stymieing my efforts. Another friend sent some drawings for some/most of the affecting parts and I'll be checking everything I can.

"I"s extra dotted, "T"s extra crossed...

I'll keep y'all posted.