TVS News 2023- Subsidiary Report is now out

This report breaks down each subsidiary.


Norton starts on page 331 link is here Nothing really new but some interesting numbers on sales below. As noted they are burning through cash and loans. They are leaning on India for engineering etc so I still am going with my electric Tuk Tuk idea or other hybrid


Numbers are in pounds

315000 in motorcycle sales
33000 in parts and servicing (guess they really are not selling parts)


201 employees - that's a factory full of people. maybe Stu can chime in on how many people he worked with

If my math is correct, it looks like they sold 16-17 motorcycles, depending on the price. at 20000 its 16 bikes and at 15,000 its 21 bikes.

they are also still sitting on 2.8 million pounds of deposits from existing customers

and it looks like 700,000 pounds in finished motorcycles

How many I worked with....as in how many staff we had at Donington or how many if the current Norton staff I used to work with?
I think we must have had around half the numbers of staff at Donington. A lot of people have since quit, or been let go since it moved to Solihull. They appear to have a strong staff turn around.
I wouldnt have lasted 3mnths there. Its a modern environment where you can not speak your mind like an adult...but instead have rooms with soft sofas to discuss your feelings with a condescending HR staff member As a Gen X and a mechanic...those environments are not good for my mental health.

I wonder how many bikes have actually been sold to the public, and not to dealers as demos..

City Garage said:

This report breaks down each subsidiary.


Norton starts on page 331 link is here Nothing really new but some interesting numbers on sales below. As noted they are burning through cash and loans. They are leaning on India for engineering etc so I still am going with my electric Tuk Tuk idea or other hybrid


Numbers are in pounds

315000 in motorcycle sales
33000 in parts and servicing (guess they really are not selling parts)


201 employees - that's a factory full of people. maybe Stu can chime in on how many people he worked with

If my math is correct, it looks like they sold 16-17 motorcycles, depending on the price. at 20000 its 16 bikes and at 15,000 its 21 bikes.

they are also still sitting on 2.8 million pounds of deposits from existing customers

and it looks like 700,000 pounds in finished motorcycles

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Genuine question CG - I have no experience with reading financial business reporting and these figures appear to be specific to Norton. What do they mean to you?

- they are also still sitting on 2.8 million pounds of deposits from existing customers

- and it looks like 700,000 pounds in finished motorcycles

Stephen_Spencer said:

Genuine question CG - I have no experience with reading financial business reporting and these figures appear to be specific to Norton. What do they mean to you?

- they are also still sitting on 2.8 million pounds of deposits from existing customers

- and it looks like 700,000 pounds in finished motorcycles

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They are burning through cash and loans and outside of the two models we are aware of it does not appear anything else is in the pipeline but again like I stated they are working with India heavily on design and engineering so ultimately we might see other products

It doesn’t say where the deposit money came from but they have stated they’re going to honor the prior commitments so they could’ve put that money in there for those commitments and also for however many people actually put deposits on new motorcycles

And depending on what motorcycles there are if they are 961 then I would expect that they have 40 to 60 motorcycles sitting around and whether those are accounted for through demos etc. it’s unknown and does not break it down in the financials

I know I have said this 20 times but we still don’t know where the 40 motorcycles we’re supposed to go and if those actually went to any customers etc.

And with 200 employees and not one person is leaking any information?

The financials read like a moderately funded start up but as it’s been stated before it’s not really a start up.

If you go back to my earlier math about how many bikes they would sell just to cover employee costs that means they would have to ramp up sales and production and as we have seen with the offering of discounts already it doesn’t look like the sellthrough is happening like they thought.

Also imagine if you are a selling dealer/partner and the factory is now offering incentives unless they cut their margins for the dealers it lowers the incentive for the dealers to sell their product when they can go to the factory and get a discount

And finally with the resale market in the UK having numerous I wouldn’t say flooded with 961 but there are certainly a lot of listings that are not moving which would be a cause for concern

And regarding the parts and service number without them breaking down how much in parts and how much and service we really don’t know if they’re actually selling that many parts and even if that number was completely parts that is not a lot considering they’re selling $400 chain guards and $300 sprockets

Got ya - a complicated set of figures.

Think we can be reasonably assured that there are further (than the 3) models being developed though, as they have indicated throughout - although a target date of the end of next year is not very inspiring. If not, what is the outlook. Nobody believes that they can make a success of Norton with just these legacy models and with sales confined to the UK.

It‘s my understanding that the 40 were delivered - we’ve seen reporting to that effect.

So, 2.8m ’Advance from Customers’ could be a f%&k load of deposits for Norton motorcycles?

They say the 40 are gone then why would they say they have deposits for pre TVS bikes? and 2.8 is a lot, even if they took 5k a bike so that number needs some explanation. I would think if they using rough numbers at 5k deposit/ 560 bike orders, they would want to tout a waiting list and also not discount bikes because if I was one of the 500, I would want a discount as well. So my thought is while its a sizeable number even at 500 that's not a lot of motorcycles.

City Garage said:

They say the 40 are gone then why would they say they have deposits for pre TVS bikes? and 2.8 is a lot, even if they took 5k a bike so that number needs some explanation. I would think if they using rough numbers at 5k deposit/ 560 bike orders, they would want to tout a waiting list and also not discount bikes because if I was one of the 500, I would want a discount as well. So my thought is while its a sizeable number even at 500 that's not a lot of motorcycles.

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I’ll be optimistic and say it’s 500 deposit for 5000 motorcycle orders.

Love this forum - we can exchange views for weeks on a gear change rod (and rightly so when a member asks for assistance) and when significant news breaks we get crickets and tumble weeds! I guess speculation is just speculation though.

We’ve been debating for months (and months) on Norton’s progress and what will and will not sell, from the legacy bikes in particular.

CG has interpreted the above Norton Subsidiary report and in particular the figure of £2.8m specified as ’Advance from Customers’. Part (?) or possibly all (?) appears to be bike deposits from customers. Also £700K in completed motorcycles.

Given that Norton take a 10% deposit (I think) on each bike that would potentially appear be a lot of motorcycles. If this interpretation is correct that’s great news. Does’nt explain the 961 discount though and makes me wonder again what has sold?

Limited run of 200 each of the V4SV and V4CR I believe (£4400 deposit). If I remember correctly the Donington V4SS sold out straight away? Who knows - I guess only time, or the rather slow Norton communication system will tell.

The £700K seems to be completed stock that is for retail - seems no one wants them and the stories of backlog / part supply / high demand issues are not true. If customers are waiting then why the £700K of stock. The report is not good news, and clearly they have not sold much.

Madnorton said:

The £700K seems to be completed stock that is for retail - seems no one wants them and the stories of backlog / part supply / high demand issues are not true. If customers are waiting then why the £700K of stock. The report is not good news, and clearly they have not sold much.

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What do you believe the £2.8m shown as ‘Advance from Customers’ means?

£11.4 million wage bill seems high for a company of the size it is.

Nortoniggy said:

£11.4 million wage bill seems high for a company of the size it is.

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There are over 200 employees. And considering they will be heavily skewed towards design and engineering skills, I’d suggest it sounds about right.

Madnorton said:

The £700K seems to be completed stock that is for retail - seems no one wants them and the stories of backlog / part supply / high demand issues are not true. If customers are waiting then why the £700K of stock. The report is not good news, and clearly they have not sold much.

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I had some of the same thoughts.

Nortoniggy said:

£11.4 million wage bill seems high for a company of the size it is.

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Not when you average out the number of employees and wage per hour

Stephen_Spencer said:

What do you believe the £2.8m shown as ‘Advance from Customers’ means?

View attachment 108254

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It means the numbers dont support each other. Why have 700K in motorcycles and still be that heavy on customer deposits? are the deposits heavy on the V4 and not 961 and they have only 961?

And again not one new owner on this board yet???

City Garage said:

It means the numbers dont support each other. Why have 700K in motorcycles and still be that heavy on customer deposits? are the deposits heavy on the V4 and not 961 and they have only 961?

And again not one new owner on this board yet???

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That would be my guess, that the larger proportion of the 2.8m - whatever represents deposits taken - is more likely to be for the V4 initially. The Donington V4 sold out straight away I think, 961 more sold slowly of course.

The more wealthy - ‘must have new exotica’ and collectors (and maybe investors) would likely be drawn to the limited edition V4’s, that may be more difficult for Norton to get out of the door; especially if they had prepped for 961’s to be the initial push. Who knows.

I’m not sure your ref to lack of owners on thIs site is a good indicator of sales. Our number is limited, with many based overseas where Norton is not available. Of our total number a relatively small group ever comment (and most that do already have Donington 961’s) - we have a Brummie Norton owner on the site who has not commented for example.

There are a few popping up on FB, but with the average age of likely purchasers you would have to wonder how interested in social media they might be.

They are obviously taking orders and it seems likely that money is going into the ‘Advance from Customer’ bucket. I guess we are still speculating about how much and how many of which bikes. Let’s hope that it’s not as dire as Madnorton’s speculation.

Stephen_Spencer said:

That would be my guess, that the larger proportion of the 2.8m - whatever represents deposits taken - is more likely to be for the V4 initially. The Donington V4 sold out straight away I think, 961 more sold slowly of course.

The more wealthy - ‘must have new exotica’ and collectors (and maybe investors) would likely be drawn to the limited edition V4’s, that may be more difficult for Norton to get out of the door; especially if they had prepped for 961’s to be the initial push. Who knows.

I’m not sure your ref to lack of owners on thIs site is a good indicator of sales. Our number is limited, with many based overseas where Norton is not available. Of our total number a relatively small group ever comment (and most that do already have Donington 961’s) - we have a Brummie Norton owner on the site who has not commented for example.

There are a few popping up on FB, but with the average age of likely purchasers you would have to wonder how interested in social media they might be.

They are obviously taking orders and it seems likely that money is going into the ‘Advance from Customer’ bucket. I guess we are still speculating about how much and how many of which bikes. Let’s hope that it’s not as dire as Madnorton’s speculation.

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I agree on the V4. and owners love forums. look at the average age of us here. or go over to Rennlist(Porsche forum) and again many of us above 55 etc. On specialty/low-quantity items, people want the information, and the forums are the place to get it, so again, I'm sticking with where are the new owners? Say they sold 100, then we should have one or two here right? Im not saying its an indication of sales but it is an indication of interest. I would bet all my motorcycles that Norton has people monitoring this and other forums to see how well the product is received by "actual" motorcycle owners, not people who follow influencers.

Your wealth/collectors might be a little different there than here. My clients and friends wouldn't touch any of the new stuff...yet. They would wait for the initial run to see which way the tide is going. These people don't like items that lose value, and with Norton already discounting motorcycles, it lowers the brand standard across the board. Would you buy a new 961 knowing that its been discounted and the used market is flooded with low mileage bikes for sale?

City Garage said:

Would you buy a new 961 knowing that its been discounted and the used market is flooded with low mileage bikes for sale?

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That depends firstly on if you’re an investor or a rider IMO.

No one should buy a new 961 as an investment. There are much better ways of investing £17k-£20k if return on your investment is your motivation.

If you’re a rider, then it depends quite a lot on exactly what’s new in these new bikes.

Hence my (oft repeated) point about why the f**k Norton don’t publicise the ‘engineering changes’.

Both minor and more serious issues have been reported with old bikes (let’s not start arguing about what’s on that list again tho eh).

So IF these issues are now fixed, it’s a very good reason for folk to consider a new bike over a cheaper old one.

Conversely, if these issues have not been fixed, the new bikes look very expensive vs older ones. With a bit of patience and some haggling you could buy a low mileage older Donington bike for around £10k less than a new one.

£10k is a lot of money. It is not unreasonable to ask what you’re getting for that £10k IMO.

Wondered just what a good example, used, goes for so I had a look at ebay. Some lower some higher and claimed to be sorted by a guru. Right now money is busy inflating away so used 961s seem not entirely priced out of sight.
Agree that Norton should explain why their latest bikes are worth the price.

There are MUCH cheaper than that !

Like this: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/305023527531?_trkparms=amclksrc=ITM&aid=1110006&algo=HOMESPLICE.SIM&ao=1&asc=251962&meid=13473065c12e47c284890e1d3538df8d&pid=101429&rk=1&rkt=6&sd=295814744856&itm=305023527531&pmt=0&noa=1&pg=2332490&algv=DefaultOrganicWeb&_trksid=p2332490.c101429.m2460

Seems to me it’s got low enough mileage to not be worn out, and high enough mileage to assume it isn’t a dud. Get it for a low price, factor in some cash for a thorough sort out by Stu, and yer got a decent bike.

And that’s the ASKING price. Keep an eye out for 961s put on eBay as an auction, the prices they get bid to is low.

A buyers market I reckon…