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TRIUMPH T 100 R / T 100 RR . 1955/57 .

Discussion in 'Triumph (Classic)' started by Matt Spencer, Sep 12, 2012.

  1. Lurkingclass

    Lurkingclass

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2012
    Re: TRIUMPH T 100 R / T 100 RR

    Pretty sure this thread is specifically addressing pre-unit Tiger 100 models, when they were the hot ticket for AMA Class C. In fact, the dual-carb pre-unit 500 models cost more than any of the 650 models. Guess where the first Bonneville head came from?

    Regarding the use of big-bearing cases for the 650, the 1954 Tiger 110 was the first to use them.
     
  2. Lurkingclass

    Lurkingclass

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2012
    Re: TRIUMPH T 100 R / T 100 RR

    Here ya go: http://www.jockeyjournal.com/forum/show ... ght=t100rr

    That thread is the most comprehensive single source for information on these bikes. I've had a T100/RR frame, and I know a few guys with T100/R bikes. The T100/R frame was pretty much a standard rigid frame (keep in mind you could buy a 5T or 6T in a swingarm or rigid frame that year) but my T100/RR frame was an earlier rigid-style frame, but had the 1958/1959 style neck with the steering lock. That thread on the JJ should answer most of your questions. Post some pics of your T100 stuff!
     
  3. J.A.W.

    J.A.W.

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2012
    Re: TRIUMPH T 100 R / T 100 RR

    Pretty sure this thread starts with T 100 R & relates to Triumph competition evolution in U.S. racing.
    AMA [H-D] rules mandated 500cc OHV max to race against 750cc side valves, this went on through the `60s when Triumph won a couple of No 1 Championship plates with Gary Nixon riding the unit T100 & so Triumph sold the roadbike T100 R Daytona on the back of this success, having incorporated several Doug Hele racing developments into the evolution of the road machine.
     
  4. Matt Spencer

    Matt Spencer

    Joined:
    Jul 25, 2010
    Re: TRIUMPH T 100 R / T 100 RR

    Starts . . .

    Turner spent half the year in the U.S. , where the competition development of the TRIUMPH evolved . T 100 R is 1955 , T 100 RR is 1957 ( splay port head )

    [​IMG]
     
  5. J.A.W.

    J.A.W.

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2012
    Re: TRIUMPH T 100 R / T 100 RR

    Wow, deja view, all over again-& 'evolved' no less...But if not artificially limited to 500cc - why would you CHOOSE a small displacement pre-unit which offers no advantage over a 650 or larger mill running the same cycle parts?
     
  6. Lurkingclass

    Lurkingclass

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2012
    Re: TRIUMPH T 100 R / T 100 RR

    Sounds like you've never ridden one of these alloy 500. The pre-unit alloy 500 motors run much cooler, head gaskets last longer, they wind up way faster than a 650, and are one of the best motors ever put in a motorcycle. Also, AMA Class C limits OHV motors to 500cc, since we're talking about competition bikes here.

    If a '650 or larger mill' is so much better, why did these alloy 500 twins (not to mention the BSA Goldstar and Norton Manx and Inter) have so much success with that displacement? There's lots of records set with these motors. My 500cc Tiger 100 will smoke my 74" (1200cc) Panhead, so bigger isn't always better.
     
  7. J.A.W.

    J.A.W.

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2012
    Re: TRIUMPH T 100 R / T 100 RR

    Fair comment. & Fonzie liked`em too..
     
  8. Matt Spencer

    Matt Spencer

    Joined:
    Jul 25, 2010
  9. J.A.W.

    J.A.W.

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2012
  10. 72Combat

    72Combat

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2011
    Re: TRIUMPH T 100 R / T 100 RR

    I thought the 500 was for a class of racing and the 650 was not...?
    All this pre unit talk makes me want to put my 58 T110 back together... :D
    Picked up a 'delta' twin carb head a few years ago with no cracks, whats the diff between the 500 and 650 one?
     
  11. Matt Spencer

    Matt Spencer

    Joined:
    Jul 25, 2010
    Re: TRIUMPH T 100 R / T 100 RR

    " Picked up a 'delta' twin carb head a few years ago with no cracks, whats the diff between the 500 and 650 one? " .

    The 500s got Bigger Valves . :D :p
     
  12. internetannoyance

    internetannoyance

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2012
    Re: TRIUMPH T 100 R / T 100 RR

    Um, theres a huge difference, theres actually no such thing as a 650 Delta head. the Delta head has the later wide spaced finning of the 650s as opposed to the close pitch fins of the alloy 500s, so they look a little strange on the 500 alloy barrells. But they are a special special head. theres a lot of info on these out there but ill hit the high points.
    the head if you turn it over is Spigoted for the alloy 500 barrell, just like early Norton Twins. You would have to do a lot of machine work to use a delta head on a 650 not to mention I believe you would also have to redo the bolt pattern. nigh near impossible,
    the Delta heads were a US import item, a few were fitted at the factory, Ive heard them called "Red Stripe" motors. Theres some knowledgable people out there who have a lot of info on these alleged red stripe engines, one guy,, posted a lot on this some years back on Brit Iron, look in the archives.
    But in general, they made approximately 400 of these heads, 200 for the east coast, and 200 for the west coast, the east coast ones were mostly all modified right off the boat, the spigots cut off, and the heads were ported and then rewelded back on. they are distinctive. The west coast ones were generally left alone except what the tuner or installer might have done to them,
    these are unique distinctive castings, Ill post pictures early next week of several examples, I have 3 of them, ones on a 58 TR5 old race bike, the others are for projects,, ones a super duper T100 racer im collecting bits for . Ive been collecting data on this topic for 10 years now, I also have pictures of an amazing bike owned by Greg Hult of Cycle Spares,, its all original, and some amazing details, I took the pix at the Clubmans show 4 years ago, Ill look for them and post them too. Many people thought it was a shabby old bike without knowing the significance of it, I went nuts and took a dozen pictures from every angle,
    the leading experts on this topic are Author David Gaylin, and John Healey of the TIOC and Coventry Spares, also founder of the famed Triumph rally in Baltimore. Both have been very generous to me answering my many stupid questions. for anyone who wants the definitive guide for Triumphs, go on Feebay and buy the new Triumph restoration guide from David, he will autograph it for you. Tell him the internet annoyance sent you.

    Theres a guy in Australia I met about 9-10 years ago who was selling a delta head bike on ebay. we exchanged many emails and I would say he is right up there as well on the knowledge base. I have the emails saved on another computer with pictures and tech. Theres a local guy here.. Bill Brown, he has several of these bikes,, 5 of them I think, plus all the factory dispatch records of every serial number, He has been collecting this stuff for 30 years.
    Also, one of the local museums board members will be selling his Triumph GP bike. not cheap or for the faint of heart, Ill post pix and details up here, you can see it currently hosted on another guys site, he is an avid collector and a great collection, google "Wayne's Triumphs" and look for the GP bike. If you want the sellers info PM me direct
     
  13. Matt Spencer

    Matt Spencer

    Joined:
    Jul 25, 2010
    Re: TRIUMPH T 100 R / T 100 RR

    Thanks for that .

    If one can stand the swing arm frame , this is the T100 RS from 1957 . The plot thickens .

    [​IMG]

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  14. internetannoyance

    internetannoyance

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2012
    Re: TRIUMPH T 100 R / T 100 RR

    nice!,.,., yep both those bikes have the Delta heads, look closely at the blue and white one, as well the bike in the row next to it ALSO has a Delta head, look at the fins of the heads, the Delta heads have the wide 650 style spacing while the cylinders are the normal close pitch fins of the alloy 500s, its distinctive once you look, Im sorry I havent posted pix yet, got a full plate for a bit more but will get to it, but when you look at the rear of the casting where the spigots are for the carbies, it looks a bit weird as they used a mold for a single carb head, the castings are still there but un machined, and added splayed ports to the mold or Die so theres cast in splayed port intakes. it looks a bit odd when you notice it.

    That motozania where the pix were from,, any info on the bikes besides the pictures? the blue and white one is nice, but no tacho drive, (my 58 TR5 Delta head racer is like that) but the one next to it has a tach drive, both look like were set up for road racing, but its common to see them set up for TT/flat track as well, especially in the western US. Good materials you are posting there laddie,, keep it up, ill contribute where i can, looks like im going to be off work from the day job for the winter and will have the time.
    thank you
     
  15. acotrel

    acotrel

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2012
    Re: TRIUMPH T 100 R / T 100 RR

    I believe that the 1972/3 T100 has a ball race on the timing side instead of the plain white metal bearing, also has a splay port head. I saw one as a racer for sale a few years ago. I thought about it but decided I couldn't afford a decent CR 'C type' gearbox. All my racing bikes have always started and finished with the gear box. If you haven't got it, you can forget about racing. If there was a cheap 5 speed box, you could race one of those in a pre '62 class. It would be a really great cheater.
     
  16. internetannoyance

    internetannoyance

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2012
    Re: TRIUMPH T 100 R / T 100 RR

    ---------------------------------------------------------------

    Yes & No, I have a rickman project and have a super nice late model Daytona motor for it. YES late model 500 units DO have the real bearings, which makes them the best choice for racing, not that a plain bush bearing motor cant be raced, they were,. But the late daytonas were in demand for a variety of upgrades, the bearing upgrade, upgraded crank, i *Think* the rods, the Trans was beefed up as well
    There MAY be exceptions but NO on the splay port heads, 500 unit heads are a funny duck, for single carbs they run a single manifiold like the TR6 650, paralell ports and the manifold bolts on,. for a dual carb, such as the Daytona, they have seperate manifolds that splay the carbs out to the side but its essentially the same head. so you can mix and match,, you can run a single carb Daytona if you desire.

    Allegedly the late Daytonas had slightly bigger valves, Im not really sure,,I have piles and piles of cyl heads and havent noticed any difference and have looked. I will do some comparisons this winter as I have enough parts to build up some more late 500 units,,lotta basket cases.

    Im confused about your gearbox statement,,, are you talking about a unit 500 or a preunit 500? you can upgrade unit 500 box with late unit 500 parts and its the best it can be.. on preunit boxs,, people modify them and put in a 5sp from the unit 750s all the time, its not a hard modification, I have one here for a cafe preunit Duplex Bonnie,

    for another take on things there is a local road race guy who experimtned with the Unit 500s where they cut off the gearbox and ran alternative gearboxs for different gearing options. The idea was they wanted to run exceptionally high rpms, it didnt work and at one point I was there when he grenaded the motor and oiled the track to the annoyance of other racers. I always did wonder about using a honda gearbox cut off a CB750 or something, much better clutchs and some interesting gearing choices if you look at all the jap brands, In some cases you have to flip them over as the clutchs are on the wrong side, a friend was exploring this idea for a custom bike,, a triumph Servi-car type 3 wheeler,also to use the starter. Hasnt moved from theoretical stage yet.
     
  17. J.A.W.

    J.A.W.

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2012
    Re: TRIUMPH T 100 R / T 100 RR

    Interesting input - ta, guys.
    Those unit 500s had splayed inlet stubs for X2 carbs,but not ports [funnily enough the the late Bonnevilles went back to the same idea using Tiger parallel port heads].
    The Daytona heads were different from the lower tune TR 5 single carb dirt bike type [ part No` & big valve/combustion chamber shape].
    Boyer included them in their Triumph tuning manual, & the factory applied many of the lessons hard-learned in high revving 500cc U.S.''C''class race tuning to their Trident.
    Quaife did offer a 5-speed race box [no kick-starter] for them, back in the day, but that Turner spec ''C15'' type box was always a weak point.
     
  18. internetannoyance

    internetannoyance

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2012
    Re: TRIUMPH T 100 R / T 100 RR

    The Stan Shenton "Triumph Speed tuning" book is an excellent place to start, they go into detail on the 500 units, 650s and Triples, good primer on this tech, there is ALSO a good book written for Preunit triumphs, "Secrets of more Horsepower through,,, Tuning the 650 Triumph" by Dwain Taylor. Both these books are tad bit dated,, tech had evolved, for example these both come from the era of "polished intakes are a good thing"
    and we know now more about Squish, tumble and Swirl,, no Singh grooves in these tome's Id encourage you guys to look for Taylors book, there used to be a shop selling them on Fee-bay, Shentons books are back in print and updated, please support these guys,, but if you CANNOT find Taylors book, i have made a copy for a friend before,... can do it again, but i prefer you exhaust your resources before you ask me.,

    I did NOT get into the types of unit 500 heads for a reason, only about the valves being allegedly bigger on the late Daytona vs the regular T100s,,

    the reason is I hear often that people claim the Unit 500 late Dayotna head had bigger valves, ive heard it and read it,. I MAY be wrong (It happened once,I was told by my wife) but i havent seen any evidence of that. But there IS differences in early heads and later heads for a different reason, the early heads had a large domed hemi styled combustion chamber and matching high domed pistons, at some point in the mid to late 1960s Triumph redesigned the heads and went with a shallower combustion chamber and soft domed pistons and in some cases a flat top, well, the piston has a slight dome and then flat on top, there are some alternative slipper pistons with cut down skirts and a soft rounded dome as well (I have some in several sizes and like to use them, I dont think you can find them now)
    Some builders claim the early hemi heads are better and advocate using them on a late Daytona with the late Daytona cams and altered cam settings (Adv-retard by the teeth) to suit the race tracks or conditions ie: long straights =high end or fast out of the corners=Torque.
    But finding pistons for the hemi heads can be a challenge

    just depends, cyl head and combustion chamber tech has come a long way, on Sir Eddys race engine Les at Littles Engine service completely reworked the Norton head, hour glass combustion chambers, med rise domes,tight squish, singh grooves, 6mm black diamond valves and reworked ports, its the latest tech amd desiged for the high RPM land speed record style racing we are going for.
    A torque monster dirt bike or street tracker is a different animal, which is what im going for with my Triumph-Rickman.
    horses for courses laddies..
     
  19. J.A.W.

    J.A.W.

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2012
    Re: TRIUMPH T 100 R / T 100 RR

    Of possible interest, Big D in Texas has downloadable Triumph parts books on their web-site, the listings show different part numbers for the late unit 500 heads, & I have [back in the day] had both types on hand for direct comparison, the Daytona head was a distinct part, needing high dome pistons to fill the bigger [needed to fit the 650size/diameter valve heads] combustion chambers.
    The big hemi open combustion chambers work best in forced induction applications, but they were originally developed when fuel values were quite different to todays standard unleaded types.
    Some info here may be worth a view.. http://www.valiant.org/valiant/hemi-six.html
     
  20. acotrel

    acotrel

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2012
    Re: TRIUMPH T 100 R / T 100 RR

    Is there any imformation about what comprised the Percy Tait Daytona 500 ? That seemed to be a fast reliable bike, and I believe it was unit construction. My own short stroke 500 Triumph had a 63mm billet crank and drastic cams. It was simply nasty, but I believe a tame, fast one could be built. The rod length was wrong in my opinion. It used all fifties 650 parts except the crank.I cut 12mm off the barrel. It was slow accelerating until it was wound up in top, then it would accelerate forever.

    This is the short stroke 500cc Triumph:


    [​IMG]
     

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