1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

TRIUMPH T 100 R / T 100 RR . 1955/57 .

Discussion in 'Triumph (Classic)' started by Matt Spencer, Sep 12, 2012.

  1. acotrel

    acotrel

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2012
    Re: TRIUMPH T 100 R / T 100 RR

    I always used a 4 speed CR gearbox, but after I sold the bike to a friend he fitted the late 5 speed Triumph box. I thought it would present difficulties with that short stroke. But I rode it a few years ago and it was quite OK. I believe Phil Pick sells two pairs of gears for that box which move second and third up a bit. It's just a pity that the unit motor doesn't present similar opportunities. A decent CR gear box is essential for a short stroker. Most other things about the late unit motor are good.
    To explain about the gearbox - when you are building any road racer, the first thing t o look for is a decent close ratio gearbox. If you cannot find one, your efforts to make a fast bike will be in vain. You can end up with a bike that almost stalls in certtain places around tight circuits, and you can never be smooth on it on downshifts. I rode my Seeley commando with a standard box - it was revolting. Some guys who have never used a close box thing the standard box is OK - they need the experience of using the good thing.
     
  2. internetannoyance

    internetannoyance

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2012
    Re: TRIUMPH T 100 R / T 100 RR

    My Stan Shenton "Triumph Speed tuning book" is a first edition, I havent gotten around to getting the new version although i shall endeavor to do so. The book details all the work Boyer of Bromley did for all their race bikes. I am unclear as to if that relates to the Percy Tait bike,,
    I just thumbed thru my copy, It does talk about the CR boxs availible for UNIT 650s and 500s, I am unsure If i have any of those clusters, I have a lot of stuff in storage and will be some time before its all inventoried. I have never run across any while building any of my engines or for anyone else. I believe i have some alternative sets in Unit 650/500 BSA but thats a different discussion.
    While interesting, i dont really need any for my purposes except my early preunit Delta head T100 Preunit hot rod project. I *Could* use a Quaife 5 speed set from a 750 in a preunit box (already have one for a preunit duplex frame 1961 Bonnie cafe project) I need the mainshaft 5th gear for another set and I would have a complete one. It had one badly mangled. If anyone had a empty 750 case with one still in it (Common to see) id buy the case just to get that gear,.
    I have seen some race 500 units in another book,,im not sure which one, (I have a lot of books) and the bike im thinking of i believe IS at Daytona,
    any rate it is distinctive in that it has LARGE oil cooler radiators on either side of the motor near the front downtubes near the front bottom of the tank. I thought that was a bit exceesive and wondered where they were sourced from. Years later I encountered the "Norvair" a bike i ended up purchasing, it was a wideline featherbed that was sawed in half and lengthened approx 12-13 inchs and sandwhiched in was a 6 cylinder Corvair engine. That bike is a story in itself, but of interest here is it had large oil radiators,, And they are exactly the same i believe as to the ones shown with the 500 unit twin race bike.

    My hypothosis is that racers and tuners tend to be a bit crude at times and tend to use what is availible, I suspect the racer in question was thought to have oil issues on long high rpm race tracks and they were trying to cool it, the Corvair oil radiators were rather large, I believe someone looked at them, "Ah, THATS the ticket!!" and used them. I have seen plenty of Triumphs use the Trident style coolers and I have one of those for a race replica 650 unit project stashed, but in truth, most triumphs on the street dont need oil cooling,Extensive testing shows that on street bikes, If anything most street triumhs suffer lubrication problems from under temps, lack of flow and condensation (water contamination expecially inthe gearbox). Flow VOLUME not pressure is the key, too fast and too much pressure is bad, but volumes is key, and lots of it.

    I do believe any high performance triumph DOES benefit from using the norton return line type filter and I also like to use the pressure relief valve modification and reroute the top end lubricant off that instead of off the return line bypass. For details of how that is done look at the BSA B50 page and copy that, you can alter the oil jet orifice size to suit yourself, I like to open up the tappet return flow holes slightly and bump up the top end feed just a bit. A friend had one of the weslake 8 valve triumphs and experienced excessive top end wear and failures and testing showed that this mod I just described took care of the problem. Im sure some may debate it But im convinced that clean oil under pressure is always superior to dirty oil trickled under bypass., my 2 cents or pence
     
  3. internetannoyance

    internetannoyance

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2012
    Re: TRIUMPH T 100 R / T 100 RR

    That is very nice, perhaps thats been covered before,, I think i have seen references to it. but would you indulge me in more details about it? Are those manx hubs? is that a manx or regular featherbed? tell me more on the engine? Big bearing or small bearing cases? what year? what year crank did you use? what year and model Rods? what cams? What cylinder head? Im interested in the high end RPM aspect, that would be fun to ride... But in my own world, I tend to build motors for low end and mid range for the street. what you are describing is big road circuit racing., Also,, in fiddling with these old motors, I dont have a lot of faith in alloy rods with unknown history and mileage, so I tend to keep RPMS conservative. The Boyer of Bromley boys state they considered a set of rods worn out and should be replaced after a 500 mile race.
    I worked for years in aerospace, where we firmly believe in time change items. Alloy rods are in that category in my opnion.
     
  4. Matt Spencer

    Matt Spencer

    Joined:
    Jul 25, 2010
    Re: TRIUMPH T 100 R / T 100 RR

    Indeedski Comrade ; The detergent oil carries the grot , so it can get caught by the filter .
    To save weight , you can leave of the filter and get it caught at the big end shells . :D :shock: :?

    Terra Australiss , being a trifle warm AT TIMES , as in away from the coast & the rest . Weve figured if we can get 300 mph , we can get from Dubbo to Burke in two hours .
    Theyve got nice cameras up now , so can get the record verified . :wink:

    ANYWAY , the Oil Toob Triumph wotsits ARNT renouned for excessive Oil Capacity . therefre a Filter & a Lockheed ( Trident ) cooler , increse the total oil capacity .which is a strart .
    The uva wotsits , if you DOUBLE the Capacity , it takes twice as long to get through , so it takes twice as long ( to do so ) therefore it lasts twice as long . So if you go back & forward six times in twenty four hours , you dont have to stop & change it , till youve finnished . :p

    Pressure feed to the valve gear , ont Trumpy ( aka Norton C'do ) should be feeding COOL oil , therfore lowering Cylinder Head temperature . Therefore allowing higher C.R.
    and greater horsepower . :D
    Or At Least greater temperture stability , at the TOP . Note; Aircraft have CYLINDER HEAD temperature Guages . ( real ones did , anyway . )
    also the nasty porch turbo 5 litre 11.000 hp flat twelve, the Cylinders remained Air Cooled ( save weight ) ( or skinflints ) it was essential however to Water Cool the Cylinder heads .

    All those valves and other nasty bits walloping away inside there , along with the valve seat transfer , get a fair old temperature into the head casting .
    Of Course it makes SENSE to see the oil feed is controled , temp & flow .Great Scott .

    The model aero injun type relates the Four stroke runs hotter than the Two , in around 10 cc aerobatic engines ( the two stroke runs four cycle too . . .controlline F2B )
    AS " It has a lot more bits in there " . generating friction or whatever . So Again , cool clear oil will pull the Heat Out .

    No doubt like cooling systems & hearts , theres a optimum flow rate for heat transfer , Neither to fast , or to slow .
     
  5. J.A.W.

    J.A.W.

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2012
    Re: TRIUMPH T 100 R / T 100 RR

    Ah, the old tribological tribulations, eh? The trouble with tribbles [Triumphs?]...
    Anyhow, oil-coolers for 2-strokes....hmmmm.
    The validation of liquid cooling complexity is via closer regulation of allowable operating temperature parameters.[Thermostatic]
    The oft quoted Suzuki 1st gen GSX-R oil-cooled claims conveniently ignore those earlier T 150/A75 examples.
    Air-cooled aircraft mills were all very well for lumbering transport types with dedicated flight engineers to fettle them, but for busy fighter pilots - not so practical, thermal shock situations not being uncommon.[`til Nazi scientists developed automatic engine management systems].
    Interestingly, the loss of charge cooling value [ latent heat/evaporation] in previously carburetter fed 2-strokes has had to be addressed in the new direct injection applications, by crankcase coolant loops.
    Oil being cheaper than engine rebuilds, the primary function of extra filtration schemes on old Brit bikes is a moot point- if used as a reason to avoid frequent oil changes.
     
  6. Matt Spencer

    Matt Spencer

    Joined:
    Jul 25, 2010
    Re: TRIUMPH T 100 R / T 100 RR

    As the detergent oil carries the contaminants as they are produced , the big end shells , being softist , and not un imediately after the pump , will imbed themselves therein . UNLESS theres a fine filter element twixt & between .

    Two Stokes NEVER were COOL . :p 8) :lol: well , maybe francis barnettes , Pre war ones at least . :D
     
  7. Matt Spencer

    Matt Spencer

    Joined:
    Jul 25, 2010
    Re: TRIUMPH T 100 R / T 100 RR

    thermal shock situations not being uncommon.[`til Nazi scientists developed automatic engine management systems].


    It is known that he was being hunted especially Germans. Их асы были много опытнее Михаила, авиация Германии в то время господствовала в воздухе, а новые модификации вылизанных "Мессеров" превосходили его "Як" по многим параметрам, но сбить его под Сталинградом им так и не удалось... Their Asses were much more experienced than Michael

    :shock: I was quite shocked myself :!:

    http://translate.google.com.au/translat ... CC0Q7gEwAQ
     
  8. J.A.W.

    J.A.W.

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2012
    Re: TRIUMPH T 100 R / T 100 RR

    Contaminants?
    Given that most classic Brit bikes run discrete engine lube, not sharing with primary/clutch/gearbox, is it not reasonable to expect that any swarf circulating freely is likely indicative of something sinister/foreboding catastrophic failure pending?
    Matt, your views on what constitutes ''cool" are of dubious value, have another look at K. Roberts on the TZ 750 at the Indy dirt mile, it`s COOL-AS bro...
    As for the crude Stalinst propaganda, well -the Ministry of Truth just called, they want their bog roll back...
     
  9. J.A.W.

    J.A.W.

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2012
  10. acotrel

    acotrel

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2012
  11. internetannoyance

    internetannoyance

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2012
    Re: TRIUMPH T 100 R / T 100 RR

    There is currently a Triumph T100R on feebay with the Delta racing head on it. BIN with $45,000 might be okay if the real deal but if a replica thats a lot of coin,, it has modified spigots and TT Carbys,,

    the east coast distributor did this to their share of the Delta race heads, the west coast distributor didnt, I have several Delta heads and mine have handed monoblocs, so, this bike on feebay isnt 100% factory no matter how you slice it, but worth checking out.
     
  12. Lurkingclass

    Lurkingclass

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2012
    Re: TRIUMPH T 100 R / T 100 RR

    I've been lusting after one of these T100R racers for a while now, and last weekend, I found a 1955 T100R motor about 10 minutes down the road from me. Pretty nice shape too. Luckily, I just happened to have a K2FR Racing mag and a pair of Amal AN/AO 76 Race Kit carbs and manifold, along with an RC126 Race Kit Tach and generator-mount tach drive. Sorry- I hid the last digit of the motor number because these bikes are getting pricey, but I know a guy who has the bike made after mine, another guy who had one a few numbers before so it's in the range.

    [​IMG]
     
  13. internetannoyance

    internetannoyance

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2012
    Re: TRIUMPH T 100 R / T 100 RR

    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    Thats a nice bit of kit there,, very nice, post pix as you get it put together,, I have some T100 cases,, and a lot of other bits, would be fun to build a replica of one of these, the part i DO NOT have is one of those generator position tach drives,, i do have a timing cover WITH the tach drive on it,,
    sure would like to find on of those Gen position tacho drives, a friend sent me a series of pictures of those drives seperately, if you would like a copy pm me.

    Smart move to protect your numbers, theres a alleged 1961 T120C on ebay right now, seller is none other than RSULLIVAN and those numbers on his engine case look phony as all hell, plus bead blasted cases. I have some preunit duplexs and a 59 T120 project, mine were verified by the VMCC and several experts,
    the number stampings are distinct, yet a lot of people make fakes.
     
  14. Matt Spencer

    Matt Spencer

    Joined:
    Jul 25, 2010
    Re: TRIUMPH T 100 R / T 100 RR

    Big Ed , the Chief , takes a spin .

    [​IMG]

    1948 Edward Turner
    once mentioned that he had riddeen a motorcycle at 110 mph. That occasion is captured here as he gets ready to ride Rod Coates Grand Prix model, complete with open megaphones.

    so much for mutterings and romours ' of the press ' . :lol:
     
  15. Matt Spencer

    Matt Spencer

    Joined:
    Jul 25, 2010
  16. Matt Spencer

    Matt Spencer

    Joined:
    Jul 25, 2010
  17. stockie2

    stockie2

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2011
    Re: TRIUMPH T 100 R / T 100 RR

    Hi guys,

    I am restoring a 1970 DD48925 T100R and I noticed in your discussions on cylinder heads, that one of you stated you had piles of cylinder heads? if any are for sale, I need one to suit my Daytona, the latter type without the squish-bands.
    Mine has a big crack from the stud hole to the exhaust valve seat.

    Cheers Richard
     
  18. Matt Spencer

    Matt Spencer

    Joined:
    Jul 25, 2010
    Re: TRIUMPH T 100 R / T 100 RR

    [​IMG]

    " Morrie LOW (NZ) - 8 August 1964 - Schauinsland Hill-climb. New Zealander rider Morrie Low was killed in an accident whilst practicing for the ADAC-Bergpreis at the Freiburg - Schauinsland hillclimb. Morrie was riding an AJS 350. " http://www.ozebook.com/gpwin/documents/24.html

    [​IMG]

    Early in here , theres " Maurice Lowe " 1955 I.o.M. ( Picture = Ridgid Triumph ) T100R I should think .

    nuther picture for the catalouge : [​IMG]
     
  19. acotrel

    acotrel

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2012
    Re: TRIUMPH T 100 R / T 100 RR

    I'm getting a bit confused. Is this topic about the pre-unit T100, or the unit construction T100 ? The preunit T100 with the big journal crank was quite a good bike, and most of the 650 parts fitted. The unit construction T100 up until the seventies had the white metal BSA type timing side main bearing. In the early seventies the unit T100 came out with a proper timing side bearing. They are a great motor, however If you want to race one, you really need a 6 speed CR gearbox. They look almost identical to the late 50s T100, so can race in the good class against the manxes. I believe that the Percy Tait Daytona Triumph could never have had the bush in the timing side, and that the 72 model T100 set-up was probably a derivative of the Tait bike. About 8 years ago I was offered an early T100 with the full early race kit, even had the correct frame with the rear sets, the proper carb set and tacho and megaphones. I did not buy it as I've already broken several small journal crankshafts in bikes like that. It was all to hard to bother about going there again.
     
  20. X-file

    X-file

    Joined:
    May 4, 2013
    This is getting a bit off-topic from the pre-unit engine.
    The 500 units that won Daytona in '66 had non-standard heads.Different intake valve angle (39 degrees instead of 37),a more open non-squish chamber and bigger valves,and different pistons to fill the bigger chamber.

    That head was fitted to standard road bikes for '67 model-onward,with different pistons to suit.
    The timing side ball bearing was fitted from '69 model.
     

Share This Page