TotalSeal rings bore bodge?

mikegray660 · Mar 20, 2012

i think i'm having an LSD flashback - courtesy of Jim new avatar :mrgreen:

Hobot - i would think that at least 99% of the vehicles in your neck of the woods would make Al Gore go on a rant..... surprised your worrying about a little smoke?

comnoz · Mar 20, 2012

hobot said:
I think 60 over is the next step up and I thought that was risking barrel failure. Set me straight on this option, if needed, please. I'm also seeing a leak in case seam behind Trixie's barrels last few 1000 miles too,ugh. I figure a bore costs ~ $50-60 and new pistons/regular rings ~ $150-175. I want to range far and wide on Trixie again like LOP, so better talk myself into pulling engine and spiting cases. ugh.
Could take a month to get compressor enough to diagnose leaking componets or find on exam, then buy parts and correct and diddle it all back again. At least this time its not a damaged engine to recover. Will get to inspect the lifter bottoms you resurfaced. I've run Trixie as sane normal as possible, engine wise, so will see if it was worth it or not vs just screaming around till smoking anyway.

.060 is a bit risky with a 750 although I know a lot of guys that have got along fine. For a street motor you would most likely be ok.

Are you sure it needs a bore job. Do you know what the piston clearance is? I wouldn't be afraid to assemble it at up to .006 clearance. It might be a little noisy but oil consumption shouldn't be a problem. Jim

grandpaul · Mar 21, 2012

Good rings are inexpensive and wideley available. Personally, I wouldn't risk filing down oversize rings to a smaller bore.

Now, if Total Seal composite type, I can see that each individual ring being as compliant as they are, would not be a problem. I would NEVER try it with one-piece rings.

bill · Mar 21, 2012

once again you show your lack of engine building knowledge!!!!

grandpaul said:
Good rings are inexpensive and wideley available. Personally, I wouldn't risk filing down oversize rings to a smaller bore.

Now, if Total Seal composite type, I can see that each individual ring being as compliant as they are, would not be a problem. I would NEVER try it with one-piece rings.

grandpaul · Mar 21, 2012

bill said:
once again you show your lack of engine building knowledge!!!!

grandpaul said:

Good rings are inexpensive and wideley available. Personally, I wouldn't risk filing down oversize rings to a smaller bore.

Now, if Total Seal composite type, I can see that each individual ring being as compliant as they are, would not be a problem. I would NEVER try it with one-piece rings.

Click to expand...

Okey-dokey.

...and once again, you show your ultimate superiority!

I'd rather pay a few bucks and get new, proper sized rings.

pete.v · Mar 21, 2012

Steve, before you start diagnostics and stop the overblown assumptions and ranting going on here(not that i don't like a little ranting in the right direction), but this year is predicted to be a banner mosquito year. You may want to hire yourself out for fogging. Maybe 6 oz's per tank of the right stuff and you're good to go. This should easily finance your current situation.

Just a thought!

bill · Mar 21, 2012

like you have shown before, you cant seem to grasp that there is more to building an engine then just taking parts from a box and throwing them in an engine. it is called doing it RIGHT when you custom fit the parts to the engine. just how many engines have you built or should I say thrown together??? I will put money down I built more in one year then you will ever see in your lifetime. as to buying NEW PROPER SIZED rings you can't always get an out of the box ring to give the desired fit and THAT is also known if you build custom or race engine's.

grandpaul said:
Okey-dokey.

...and once again, you show your ultimate superiority!

I'd rather pay a few bucks and get new, proper sized rings.

pete.v · Mar 21, 2012

Just an FYI to those reading about these rings.
Before going with the Totalseal gapless rings, you might want to ask JS about these. I believe they are for the light weight pistons he sells and not for just any piston. Different groove heights and widths are common between piston manufactures. Neither a shallow ring in a deep groove nor a deep ring in a shallow groove are acceptable.

gory · Mar 21, 2012

bill said:
like you have shown before, you cant seem to grasp that there is more to building an engine then just taking parts from a box and throwing them in an engine. it is called doing it RIGHT when you custom fit the parts to the engine. just how many engines have you built or should I say thrown together??? I will put money down I built more in one year then you will ever see in your lifetime. as to buying NEW PROPER SIZED rings you can't always get an out of the box ring to give the desired fit and THAT is also known if you build custom or race engine's.

I thought we had gotten away from the personal attacks - surely there is a more appropriate way to voice you disagreement?

comnoz · Mar 21, 2012

pvisseriii said:
Just an FYI to those reading about these rings.
Before going with the Totalseal gapless rings, you might want to ask JS about these. I believe they are for the light weight pistons he sells and not for just any piston. Different groove heights and widths are common between piston manufactures. Neither a shallow ring in a deep groove nor a deep ring in a shallow groove are acceptable.

The Total Seal gapless rings are available for any of the Norton pistons. They are installed on all the CNW bikes. Jim

grandpaul · Mar 21, 2012

bill said:
... as to buying NEW PROPER SIZED rings you can't always get an out of the box ring to give the desired fit and THAT is also known if you build custom or race engine's.

Better solution is to buy proper sized ring THEN file to produce proper end gap.

If you don't agree with this, then you are off base.

pete.v · Mar 21, 2012

Comnoz wrote, "The Total Seal gapless rings are available for any of the Norton pistons. They are installed on all the CNW bikes. Jim"

Cool!

pete.v · Mar 21, 2012

Checking end gap is a requirement. If this proceedure is not part of anyones process, then you shouldn't be doing this kind of work, Period.

Hobot · Mar 21, 2012

Moss Motors on hand filing traditional Englishmen way.
[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&NR=1&v=1ZiqnychIcU[/video]

Determining proper ring gap per application
http://www.aa1car.com/library/ringendgap_wiseco.pdf

Hobot · Apr 8, 2012

Well Wes and I found out the machinist that quit the shop just before I could bring pistons to fit - left Trixie's bore a bit too big for her 0.040"ring set, * 0.025" * gap up and down the whole run. About twice what Norton manual says is too much. Found more details on over size TS ring sets and also issues with their own gap instructions being too tight, so TS revised gap ratio upwards from .003-.004" per inch of bore dia. to .006-7" per inch bore dia. But there's also the ring land width to match to order too, so more delay to take to an internal bore gauge as these over size ring sets go by the .005" steps of over bore bodge.

The engine ran fine through the break in and initiail power pulls. When we really started to push the thing, started getting it over 5000 rpm, we started noticing that the horsepower would fall of and we would start blowing oil out the dipstick tube. We ran leakdown tests on the engine and found the leak down to be right at 2% all the way around.
Everytime we would try to push this engine over 5000 rpm, we'd get oil all over the place. The higher we went , the worse the problem got. This thing was putting a huge amount of pressure nto the crank case, it would even blow thew oil breatheres off the valve covers.

We pulled the heads and thought the copper gaskets were leaking, re-installed them and re-ran the engine. Same problem.

It turns out what was happening was that the top rings were butting, after lots of phone calls to various people and finally even total seal, it was determined that the problem was that the top total seal ring requires a much larger end gap than a conventional ring, total seal told me that they are now recommending .0065 to .007 gap per inch of bore, the instructions we got with the rings indicated .005 per inch of bore,
This means that .021 ring end gap that we used was way too little, what we needed was more like .030 to .032 of gap.
The guy at total seal told me they had run into this same problem recently and they have since changed the recommended gaps on their spec sheet.
In the time we ran the engine , it destroyed the top rings, they sent me a new set, free you ask? no way, they just discounted the price. Of course we had to do a complete teardown of this engine and everything that that involves, re hone the cylinders, all new gaskets.
This has been a very expensive experience, but you have to do what you have to do.

The reason for this post is not to trash total seal, but to pass on information about these new rings, if you are using the new top total seal ring, make sure you gap the top ring wider than normal. We were also told to increase the 2nd ring gap to .024 to .026.
The guy at total seal said if this had just been a mild street motor of 300 or 400 horsepower, we probably would not have had the problem. Jim Burek P.A.E . ENTERPRISES

Jim

Boy I sure am glad I saw this post! I immediately dug out my set of total seal rings and checked the instructions in the box. It reads as follows:
"suggested ring end gap for top ring is .004" per inch of cylinder diameter(.016 for 4" bore)."
"suggested ring end gap for second ring is .003 per inch cylinder(.012 for 4" bore)."

Then instructions in the bag w/the rings say:
"These compression rings have been manufactured oversized to allow you to fit them to your bore. Check ring end gap at the bottom of the ring travel or the smallest section of the bore.
"RECOMMENDED MINIMUM RING END GAP
Engines 6,000 RPM and under
Top ring .015" 2nd .015"
Engines over 6,000,blown,fuelers,etc
Top ring .020" 2nd .015"
The instructions that you had are .001 to .002 per cylinder inch more than what my instructions read. Should I use the info that Total Seal told you?

more in here
http://www.v8buick.com/archive/index.php/t-1719.html

http://www.jegs.com/p/Total-Seal/Total- ... 9/10002/-1

Gaps open as standard piston rings wear, allowing more combustion gases to escape (blow-by). Gapless rings solve this problem with two-part interlocking rings to close gaps and to improve piston-cylinder seals. As gapless rings wear, gaps stay sealed.

Hobot · Apr 8, 2012

Totally fascinating scope on piston bore and ring dynamics with maybe a few more hp to tap with all the tricks and treat$
.
http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/engi ... ewall.html

Hobot · Apr 8, 2012

Frank Starr
-------------------
Well double Hmm. I've never seen that before, using a std. ring for a .010"
overbore. Since each .001" increase in bore diameter causes a .003"
increase in ring gap (actually pi - 3.1416, but you get my drift), it seems
to me that a std ring in a .010" overbore would result in a .030" increase
in gap over the manufacturer's design gap. If the design gap was,say,
.010", that would result in a ring gap of .040".

Hm, above implies with Trixes ring gaps at .25" each side, ie: ~0.015" too wide, her bores are honed to .045".
May take another .005" to remove the scores, so better shop for an ring that's 20 over size, if TS ring don't have an option w/o a gap. Smoking is bad for an engine and everyone else.

splatt · Apr 8, 2012

hobot said:
Hm, above implies with Trixes ring gaps at .25" each side, ie: ~0.015" too wide, her bores are honed to .045".
May take another .005" to remove the scores, so better shop for an ring that's 20 over size, if TS ring don't have an option w/o a gap. Smoking is bad for an engine and everyone else.

If you hone another 0.005''out of your bores it's phucked, why do you have scores?, loose rings won't score the bores, at 0.0045'' clearance the correct rings would have had about 0.015'' gap,even at 0.020 gap, with the correct cylinder clearance, it wouldn't smoke, I feel your problems may be more related to bullshit

Hobot · Apr 8, 2012

If you hone another 0.005''out of your bores it's phucked, why do you have scores?, loose rings won't score the bores, at 0.0045'' clearance the correct rings would have had about 0.015'' gap,even at 0.020 gap, with the correct cylinder clearance, it wouldn't smoke, I feel your problems may be more related to bullshit

Bullshit?, Sorry if you are confused by Trixie smoking having more than one reason at once. We found 2.5 x's bigger gap than Norton ideal, Was out of my control on the hone job as machinist quit the place the week I left the barrel there to see if they could do it, before bring in pistons or getting any measures to go by. She Sealed smokeless about same time full oil flow hit and stayed that way a few 1000 miles. The air boots came loose at some point for few 100 miles, but 1/3 of that on THE Grit, smoked a bit but cleared up after resealing the boots. The Grit getting in is only thing to explain scores, pistons sides look untouched. BTW I checked the ring gap locations to find them still staggered as installed, which don't mean they didn't spin just there weren't any gap aligned on exposing.

As we don't know what these rings would measure in a normal bore we don't really know what the bore is to judge if just over size rings should work or needs a re-bore to 60 over to last a while. Re-bore and new pistons ring set would cost like $350-400. Just new rings $60-80 at most. Mean time lots of heavy duty landscaping getting done instead of riding this nice season.

splatt · Apr 9, 2012

Yep bullshit, didn't smoke for a 1000 miles? so rings must have been allright, of course when you checked the ring gaps you would have seen they were ok, right?, when you got your bucket of hot soapy water and scrubed the bores out with your best toilet brush and wiped and oiled with paper towel you would have seen that you had removed all of the honing grit , right?
Do your rings now have a very sharp edge on them, totaly shiny faces with no areas of black or machining marks left on them? I'd say you laped out a perfectly good set of rings using bullshit.
If you do have 0.0045'' clearance, rehone, leaving whatever scratches, remove tappets and wash, including push rod tunnels, scrub bores and wipe with oil until clean, but you would have already read all of this on the internet by now any way

TotalSeal rings bore bodge?

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