TotalSeal rings bore bodge?

Had me another Norton filled day but only half of it the better kind. Pre-tested Trixie to run a mile out and back gradually smoking less than a cloud, so hopped on for appointment and got a mile out on a climb out when LH smoker side began bad misfiring, ugh so turned around, pissed, throttled WOT past the misfires for scary leaps of hooking up acceleration. Took car, had another blow out, got two more tires, then meet up with Wes here for a new chain on his '71 that went right the first time, ahh.

Them Combats are sure Quick if you've a hardened heart, a mile's worth of it today which equals ~ tank of gas worth of tire mileage gone. ahhh.

Anywho, here's the issue of post, I believe my smoker is copper head gasket seal related as also oils LH side cover and head seam. Wes The Country Curmudgeon, kept insisting its rings as bragged his copper gasket put on dry began leaking to w/o exhaust smoke and sealed just by another nip up, ugh. I did have few 100 miles w/o full air box seal. I've know first hand a new build 3 wheeler taking off w/o its air filter for just half mile joy run out and back to be ruined ring and valve job > permanent smoker on return. Ugh.

Now the other thing for the crux of the post, Trixie's barrels were OK 40 over with storage rust patina, so had them honed out and fitted off shelf asian piston and ring set from Baxter's. She sealed on run in under a min. and stayed nice for a few 1000 miles. So I wonder if the re-hone left the ring gap too wide or grit has worn the bores more. Wes says blow by could be the basic issue causing the smoke. Can't argue as even Krank PCV installed didin't help.

*Question is > Would TotalSeal rings take up both the end gap and the bore loseness?
http://www.totalseal.com/pdf/totalsealCatalog.pdf

Trixie's re-build 4.4 about to begin tonight.

So you are breaking in new rings and when one side gets a little smokey you WOT the poor girl? Just seeing if I have this right.

That sure is a serious lookin chain breaker you have there Hobot! Just show it to the chain and the links will jump off in fright!
Regarding the gapless rings you still have to get the gap dimension right just as you would with the stock items, have you checked that the inlet valve stem seals are in position on the stem correctly ? I had one come off the guide after a rebuild and by crikey did she smoke! you can check this without removeing the head by means of threading sufficient rope in through the plug hole and bringing the piston up on the compression stroke in order to keep the valve in position, then after removing the rocker spindle and arm, lever down on the spring retainer in order to release the collets, if memory serves me correct I still have the tuning fork shaped tool for the job some where. Good luck!

Disclaimer! - "Dont try this at home children!"

Swoosheroo remarks are too ignorant or just plain mean to even respond too. I've not nailed Trixie as hard or long prior so wasn't completely sure if I'd really restored a real Combat a year ago, but yes sir after 6000 rpm she leaps for joy and about lifts the front even on THE Gravel!

Fred you've covered most my concerns and added a couple more. As I've learned to advise others, ain't no way to know till its all apart in hand, again. Off to earn more gas and parts money in great spring weather but nothing to ride. Back when I know more of what is wrong and talk to TS rings, if that's even an issue, seeing how the heavy smoke had switched sides, after a period of no smoke between times.

Your copper head gasket could be the answer to your oil comsumption, lose/warn out valve seals or guides can consume more oil than bad rings or even your newly installed rings, may not be friendly with the cylinder walls (yet); I'm more than sure that you know all this., there are more possibilities for oil consumption...

I'm sure that you have left a detailed trail of the operations you have done on this engine (if you are not prolific on this medium, than no one is...), but a summary would be helpful.

To weigh in on gapless rings: I have been a Total Seal gapless user for two start-ups recently and find the initial "felt" compression to be above what I have come to expect from any other ring archetecture or material combination; I can't quantify my statement, however.

I posted here during my first installation of gapless rings (ring-end-gap-t8416.html?hilit= gap) because the end gap appeared to be much larger than what it's bore dictated it should be by the SAE (end gap and bore diameter are related). After speaking with Total Seal, JE, the vendor and a few forum members I decided to go with the apparant larger end gap. To make long story short the engine never had oil consumption issues...from any corner. So I'd say that gapless rings may be worth a shot, the issue is that they are made to a given set of bore sizes and a specific land widths, which may or may not be applicable to your pistons...so your experiment might need to add 2 new pistons to the mix to rule in the gapless rings; this would absolutly cancel out any piston/bore/ring questions relative to your machine's smoking.

RS

Ok thanks for filling me in more on the TS rings and gap. I have two Commando's. My first Ms Peel that's had everything modified plus some accidental/expedient no no's that made her a sport bikers nightmare, till I got bored and flat left em all behind out of sight till stopped to wait for em - 1st Ms Peel spirit died by a 1st ever stuck Amals throttle event in '05 on a cold winter day after a few seconds creek bed fun before heading out for less intense sports bike spanking. She would not pull much over 110 with the big windscreen after this so could not play with the hot ones do out here anymore. Takes mid 12 sec 1/4 m acceleration and over 130 mph straights to play with the serious riders here. Nothing to do with this subject line at all.

Trixie is my new smoker-oil and she is pure factory standard components, nothing done special to her on purpose with extra effort to keep her that way forever more.
1972 Combat factory stock engine, CHO head completely gone through refreshed by Michael Starkey of British Toy in NC. 7000-ish miles on it now. New guides with NOS valves fitted and 3 angle seats re-cut. New seals on intakes. Its possible seal or guides now off or leaking but I don't think that's the issue I'll find wrong. I re-torque after 1st cool down then twice more 50 and 100-ish miiles, that is on 2nd and 4th or 5th ride for 20 miles a leg. Was oil weeping w/o smoking just before surprise Texas trip I finished up broke axle repair till 2 am and headed out at 9 am so skipped over re-torque and assume this may be main head leak reason. My hi level re-torque didn't help though my bud Wes brags his re-torque on copper resealed his '71 last season.

I can't remember if I put in the Krank PCV before or after the 1000 mile Texas trip, but most of Trixie's 7000 miles were oil tight smokeless w/o any PCV. I tied it for last 3000-ish miles but no help at all.

Cylinder was 040" over when bought in '06, but re-honed in '11 to clear up storage crust. Only had copper gasket on hand, so used it dry sealed for like 4000-ish miles before smoke or oil leaks apparent. Pistons/rings off the shelf Taiwan form Baxter's cycles that know their stuff and charge for it appropriately. I did not check piston clearance nor ring gap. But proof they were and I was good enough - new rings sealed about as fast as oil pressure hit fully at 2000-3000 rpm, 30-40 seconds, dry install, like TotalSeal recommends, in a sly clever way, offering a power like Bon Ami or now a fast flash off liquid like wd/40, so not to upset those following traditional less effective ways.

About the 2000 mile mark I discovered the carb boots had a gap to air filter, about the time some smoke showed on RH side. Fitted boots better and smoke stopped for a while.

Trixies barrel base Hylomar blew out the front to oil badly for couple months 1000 miles, then resealed and held up so far.

I was going to try to reseal head w/o a gasket but Jim C said he'd had nil success that way, so have new Anover Flamering on hand now. I've never used my compression and leak down tester but will have too to get some idea where
the leak is, head parts, gasket seal or rings or all of them or none of them, ugh.

Here's an injury that occurred putting on windshield when a brace the lens but I'd not seen was when bumping the other side in line, ugh. Bezel and lens on hand now too.

Btw, Trixie is a just a make do in between project to me and to keep a Combat alive in the world as Norton issued it, so in case ya didn't notice prior - the Commando that named herself Ms Peel is my first love, so I spent a couple hours at machinist today getting her further along to return home smiling with heavy duty parts I can hold em all in one palm, I may spend an hour taking Trixie down to her cases tonight. Both Commandos test me constantly in their own ways of course.

Steve,
Is it possible that you had a soft seize early on? I don't see that much material would be removed from the cylinder wall from a light hone. And even if you did have a bigger than desirable end gap would that cause the smoking problem? Maybe you should pull the top end and check for a seize and measure the bores with a bore gauge. I've heard of people getting the next size up on the rings and filing them to fit, as a matter of course. They seem to ship rings in piston sets with too much gap to begin with.

P.S. You could run a leak down test first.

Huh, "soft seize"? Bob its Steven hobot here not a real mechanic, please explain? Going by reports and few 1000 miles fine I agree the light re-hone should not, did not create a sealing issue. Compression to kick off is strong as ever was. Plugs were running light tan even with the smoking, till this last misfiring event, then both plugs found heavy black sooty after like 1.5 miles. Gas is farm fresh no ethanol 91 octane. Hehe, still a tingle from the pissed off Combat sprinting back home to grab car for appointment.

I was about ready to open her tonight, even shut down 'puter early, then it hit me I need to do a leak down test to indicate where the problem is, then serious rain storms/tornado alerts hit and lightening, so can't haul my compressor from shed to Trixies new Norton nest in my attached garage, narrow wheels would sink in muddy sod and home is like 25 ft higher than shed, ugh. I just got off youtube and google to learn procedure details and was going to post this as the best article with details that matter in our single like twin engines. No worries mate's, I got Ms Peel right in front of me an arms reach away and with what machinist did today I can take her down to frame instead of wasting more time. I do hope Trixie is just gasket blow by. She's a sweet thing when not smoking behind my back. Will have Trixie's bores measured and piston lands and ring gaps and piston clearance then see if TotalSeal has a set to compensate if much fit faults found. There is some danger to tackle this test on a 360' twin when 100 PSI hits as part of the procedure requires rocking crank, moving piston off TDC so rings slide over the most wear prone seal area to reveal leaks missed at TDC. Never expected to learn to deal in this level mechanics.

http://www.motorcycleproject.com/motorc ... kdown.html

So you are breaking in new rings and when one side gets a little smokey you WOT the poor girl? Just seeing if I have this right.

Click to expand...

Some day that woman is going to leave him. He will come home to an empty garage. I guess he has some type of a hold over her.

Herman the German, Swooheroo is so far off subject line and actual event facts i've no comment at all. But yeah man his comment did flash me back a few days ago rooster tailing up and down THE Gravel on cam so eye lids peeling back and wrist straining till spikes of fear hit spine to make me quit just in time, time after time. I'd likely made the commute as only misfired at normal sane throttle, idled right down steady and once over 4500, smoothed out, but once over 6800 a 3rd 2S piston kicked in, but not explored prior on non-special factory Trixie, much to the decay of my reputation. When I let a motorcycles hair out, its becomes like water skiing to me, no braking possible, nil effects from front tire steering only aiming
rear thrust for least slides loss of control and best hook up into ricochets. I snap on occasions and that scares me too.

rpatton said:

I've heard of people getting the next size up on the rings and filing them to fit, as a matter of course.

Click to expand...

That's asking for a broken ring or rings, and a much worse mess to deal with later...

Steve, I think you are on the correct diagnostic path by doing both a compression and leak down test next.

Done properly, this should be able to tell you if the smoking leaking is bore/ring or valves related, and which ones.

I am sure you have already done your preparatory reading of the procedures!

Hi Steve, I think the Total Seal rings are great. The only rings to use in a Norton.
But I bet your oil problem is that a valve guide seal is off the guide and riding the valve stem up & down.
Easy fix using the clothes line in the cylinder trick and replacing the seal with one that fits the guide better.

Ugh, I'm cut out to be a pilot not a mechanic, so no I've not done proper prep yet, what ever that means. I only know to try new rings, new gasket and renew intake seals. Wes is the one who insists its ring blow by causing the head and barrels to leak and smoke, if so then what do I do if not buying another cylinder that's only 20 over? Try special TS rings that might take up some the bore score or slack?

I've learned that a proper comp. & leak down requires a fully warmed engine, so with the storms filling the cave lake above my 'yard' with a billizion tiny springs errupting under ground, only way to get a warmed up Trixie next to air supply is head out my hi & dry drive way ~100 yd then turn around and use down hill traction to hit the floating sod on quick sand like mud about 30-40 mph and ski her into my shed. Can't cut throttle completely or rear drag skews bike over, can't give much throttle or rear spins us out, there is no traction to accelerate or maintain speed, so must feather throttle let off to try & match the slowing rolling speed on random on/off traction hits of lumps and roots and pockets of pure liquid. If going fast enough ballistics hold aim so not that big a deal - if not a narrow target to hit, so trick is judging the wheel drag slowing us before hitting the shed pad but not so slow we sink or get slung around into a mud angel, again. I'll let air out to 12 fr and 14 rr to float more of course. Hm could be another video opportunity to see me splashing till crashing, ugh.




[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aRLShmQ_ZaI[/video]

grandpaul said:

rpatton said:

I've heard of people getting the next size up on the rings and filing them to fit, as a matter of course.

Click to expand...

That's asking for a broken ring or rings, and a much worse mess to deal with later...

Click to expand...

The ring manufacturers say it is acceptable to file fit up to and including .020 OS rings. I have done so many times.

I have even fit file fit rings that were .060 oversize when noting else was available. That is not advisable but I have not had any problems because of it. Jim

Well Jim and crew looks like I will have to bite the down time bullet again, to find out the actual fits and fualt issues are. Bore and rings can't be so far off that a bit more ring size and/or piston knurling couldn't take it up ok. I just paced out a path to shed to find hard enough ground for wife to video my attempt but then saw I'd left mower blocking shed entrance, ugh. Oh I could do it all right, but what a mess the bike and me would be, ugh.

Plan is, warm up to compression test & leak down test and listen for air leaks, then take apart and measure and barrow valve spring compressor to check seals. If new rings ordered - should delay another week or 2 to ride smokeless and oil tight again for public exam. I not sure if my ancient compressor can adjust up to 100 PSI, so assume less pressure could be compensated for in dial reading interpretation?? If still a city worker I'd send Trixie out and ride my handful of other Commandos from CNW or Hemmings or Dreer.

like Jim posted it was common practice for years to use the NEXT over size rings and file fit to the bore. oh it it DOES NOT LEAVE A MESS TO DEAL WITH!!!

grandpaul said:

That's asking for a broken ring or rings, and a much worse mess to deal with later...

Click to expand...

hobot said:

Well Jim and crew looks like I will have to bite the down time bullet again, to find out the actual fits and fualt issues are. Bore and rings can't be so far off that a bit more ring size and/or piston knurling couldn't take it up ok. I just paced out a path to shed to find hard enough ground for wife to video my attempt but then saw I'd left mower blocking shed entrance, ugh. Oh I could do it all right, but what a mess the bike and me would be, ugh.

Plan is, warm up to compression test & leak down test and listen for air leaks, then take apart and measure and barrow valve spring compressor to check seals. If new rings ordered - should delay another week or 2 to ride smokeless and oil tight again for public exam. I not sure if my ancient compressor can adjust up to 100 PSI, so assume less pressure could be compensated for in dial reading interpretation?? If still a city worker I'd send Trixie out and ride my handful of other Commandos from CNW or Hemmings or Dreer.

Click to expand...

If your bore is too large you will need to go next oversize. Just bigger rings won't fix it and knurled pistons will only last a short time. Not to say that is your problem. Jim

I think 60 over is the next step up and I thought that was risking barrel failure. Set me straight on this option, if needed, please. I'm also seeing a leak in case seam behind Trixie's barrels last few 1000 miles too,ugh. I figure a bore costs ~ $50-60 and new pistons/regular rings ~ $150-175. I want to range far and wide on Trixie again like LOP, so better talk myself into pulling engine and spiting cases. ugh.
Could take a month to get compressor enough to diagnose leaking componets or find on exam, then buy parts and correct and diddle it all back again. At least this time its not a damaged engine to recover. Will get to inspect the lifter bottoms you resurfaced. I've run Trixie as sane normal as possible, engine wise, so will see if it was worth it or not vs just screaming around till smoking anyway.