To Hone or Not To Hone....

Tornado

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...That Is The Question!

Interesting article on how honing a cylinder is generally a bad idea...unless freshly re-bored:


This is not theory here.

It is the conclusion of an intensive research project, involving re-ringing used bores in like engines, some being honed, or "de-glazed," as the Old Wives like to call it, and the others just having the rings replaced and the cylinders left alone. The results were the same in every case - after being run for a period of time, - the equivalent of thousands of miles of use - the honed engines IN EVERY CASE burned more oil, and upon disassembly and inspection, IN EVERY CASE had developed significantly greater clearances - piston, ring end gap, all bearings, the works - than the unhoned engines. Although not expected by many to do so, the unhoned engines in ALL cases and at ALL STAGES burned less oil, and had worn significantly less than their honed counterparts. That is the result of the research. Now for the explanation.
 

Derek Wilson

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So based on this information and your current situation with your Norton, what course of action are you considering?

I am really curious - I grew up in an automotive machine shop and have been overhauling engines for 40 years. So, as a result, I have never considered going down any of the paths that you are straying towards. I am truly interested to see what happens.
 
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I guess I seriously needed that read because I've been addicted since my teens...... With my baby needing internal attention within my lifetime this is valuable info. For rings I always use CI anyway just because.... Thanks for putting this up Tornado.
 

Tornado

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So based on this information and your current situation with your Norton, what course of action are you considering?

I am really curious - I grew up in an automotive machine shop and have been overhauling engines for 40 years. So, as a result, I have never considered going down any of the paths that you are straying towards. I am truly interested to see what happens.
Thinking to pull barrels, check bores for dimensions using ring end gap measurements, fit new ring set (iron non coated is the rec fromthe article) and assess valves and guides.
 

Tornado

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I guess I seriously needed that read because I've been addicted since my teens...... With my baby needing internal attention within my lifetime this is valuable info. For rings I always use CI anyway just because.... Thanks for putting this up Tornado.
"CI" ?
Article calls out the Chromoly edged rings as not good for re-ring job. Recs iron rings as they will break in better on a smooth used bore.
 

baz

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...That Is The Question!

Interesting article on how honing a cylinder is generally a bad idea...unless freshly re-bored:

Thanks for posting
An interesting read
I must have been lucky when I have honed and re ringed many engines I've never had a problem with them
One thing I think is very important is to scrub the bores out thoroughly, not just a wash with a degreaser and blow out with an air line
Especially after a rebore
 
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As I have said in your other thread your bores look good and if it was mine I would not disturb your pistons and rings, the rings have bedded in good and no sign of any wear to worry about, fix your head gasket up and change your oil regularly and you will get long life out of your cylinders, some just worry about things to much and replace things that don't need it, but of course that is me and my Norton has been going for 45 years and yes I have replaced thing after pull down that never needed replacing and when I replaced my crank cases about 10 years ago I slit my crank to clean the sluge trap as it has never been done after everyone was making a big deal about it, and guess what no sign of sluge what so ever because I change my oil regularly and now my balanced crank that was done in the 80s when converting my 850 to the Featherbed, my balance factor is a bit out now because I split the crank for no reason and now have a bit of vibration that I never had before.
But of course its your bike and if you feel it needs to be done then so be it, but if it was mine I leave it alone, but of course I know my bike as I have owned it since new.

Ashley
 
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It appears that the people responding do not follow the advise in the article, neither would I.

My first question would be, What do the manufactures do?
Do they try and leave as smooth a surface as possible? Or do they leave in a crosshatch finish to wear in the rings for a faster better seal?
You are not using a ball hone to size a cylinder.
The claim that a hone will leave material in the "grooves" that will get into the oil is only going to happen, if you do not clean the cylinder after you are done.
Once I see one thing wrong in an article I tend to not believe any of it without proof,

"A hone, you see, is a crude piece of work designed to remove metal, more or less at random. It's only necessity is as a first stage of polishing, in the case, and only in the case, of a cylinder having been rebored by a boring bar."

Wrong

"to allow for the extra thou or two that will be taken out with the hone."

Extra thou or two?? We are measuring and honing in 10 thousands, not a thou or two

"(assuming .002 deep scratches.)" WHAT?? No idea where this is coming from.


"And as this rough mess of peaks wears down, the metal which comes off becomes "grinding compound," polluting your oil, to wear out all your other components as well, such as bearing and even gear surfaces."

Even if this was true, you can use this new devise in your motor, I call it an oil filter.

"They _did_ find that chrome rings don't seat well, "

How odd I wonder why?



"If you've experienced problems with oil burning after a re-ring, it's not because you didn't "de-glaze" properly, but because you honed a cylinder that didn't need it.

your clearances on assembly were too great - ring gap, piston clearance.

your cylinder is too far gone in terms of diameter irregularity - taper, barrel-shaping, or out-of-round."

Any person who professionally builds engines is going to CHECK the bore, for size, trueness, and bore diameter at a number of locations, and not in a thou or two, in 10 thousands.

As well as the ring end gaps.

"Check your cylinder diameter, at both ends and in the middle in all directions
and make sure your clearances aren't too great."

Great Idea, see I can agree with him

"It's nice to do this with all the fancy bore gauges and such,"

Yes it is,

"but you can get a good idea by just putting a ring square in the cylinder, and checking the end gap with a feeler gauge at various places from top to bottom."

No you cannot

" A variation of .003 means one of .001 in diameter. Too much variation - more than .010 - tells me it's past time to rebore."

A variation of .0005" means you need to find someone who can do a better job of boring and honing

"Lots of people are fussier than I "

He is right again, that is twice in the same article!!!!
 
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No you don't need to go there... ( based on the other thread ). Clean up the head and valves. New head gasket. New valve seals (Kibblewhite type not Norton ) . Re-torque after running to hot. Fresh oil.
 

jaydee75

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Quote: " and we certainly don't rely on it to take out major bites of material - in the thousandths, for instance."

Article is correctly saying it will NOT remove thousandths.

Jaydee
 
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No you don't need to go there... ( based on the other thread ). Clean up the head and valves. New head gasket. New valve seals (Kibblewhite type not Norton ) . Re-torque after running to hot. Fresh oil.
Just to be clear, are you referring to Kibblewhite valve seals, or Kibblewhite valves?
 

marshg246

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I was told many years ago that the cross-hashing was not really for ring break-in but rather for oil retention. I'm not an automotive engineer, but that has always sounded plausible to me. Searching the Internet, you'll find many sites that say the same thing and you'll find many that say other things.

For instance, read this from total seal (I had no idea that the angle mattered so much): https://www.totalseal.com/support-and-downloads
Also, from Hastings: https://www.hastingspistonrings.com/tech_tip/oil-consumption-check-list-with-engine-disassembled/
 
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Better stuff and without biased personal bull.... I like the Hastings info and have most times used their rings... Haven't seized, broken, or failed to seal properly yet if I've handled my end right.... Just saying...

Interesting reading around here as of late.
 

Derek Wilson

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Better stuff and without biased personal bull.... I like the Hastings info and have most times used their rings... Haven't seized, broken, or failed to seal properly yet if I've handled my end right.... Just saying...

Interesting reading around here as of late.
Yes, seems like one person with dubious qualifications and sources publishes an "article" on-line and suddenly the entire collective knowledge gained over the last 100+ years of piston engine technology is cast into doubt. Why is it that we seem to have the modern need to relearn all of the lessons that our forefather's passed down to us just because every Tom, Dick, and Harry has world-wide soap box available to them at their finger tips to call them into question?

Just got to keep telling myself "not my circus, not my monkeys...."

Still sickening to watch....
 
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There is always something enticing in the contrarian viewpoint, " the rest of the world has it wrong, but I'm smarter than them"
Otherwise we would be without wonderful things such as the lastest leaky inverted roofs, coffee made from beans shat from cats and beanie type MC helmets.:)

I'm not selling my hone just yet.


Glen
 
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