To anneal, or not to anneal, that is the question

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Tangozulu

Tangozulu

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Most of the discussion on this forum has been about how to anneal with only a few seemingly recalcitrant voices saying it's not necessary. I checked with Jim Schmidt of JS Motorsports and he said don't bother. What difference will I, or my motor for that matter, notice if I fail to anneal?
 
Tangozulu said:
Most of the discussion on this forum has been about how to anneal with only a few seemingly recalcitrant voices saying it's not necessary. I checked with Jim Schmidt of JS Motorsports and he said don't bother. What difference will I, or my motor for that matter, notice if I fail to anneal?
Click to expand...

I assume were talking head gaskets? And copper ones? If so...

IMHO it is 'probably' not necessary... However I say 'probably' because I cannot think of any negative result of annealing, and ensuring it is at its softest might just help ensure the best possible seal.

Copper gaskets are seemingly known for being difficult to really seal properly against oil leaks around the oil passages (drain hole and pushrod tunnels).

If I were using a copper gasket (which I'm not) I would anneal it. I would also use Wellseal around the oil passages and I'd read up on the use of thread / copper wire around oil passages too.
 
I annealed mine, based on advice on this forum. 20,000 miles on a JSM .023" no leaks.
 
I presume gasket manufacturers use the softest copper sheet available, which comes from the mill hot rolled. Thus the copper is annealed to start with.

Pure copper does not age harden. Thus, if it was soft to start with, it will be soft when you use it.

Finally, I have never seen a new copper gasket, which came with the instructions "Anneal before using".

Copper work hardens. It becomes harder if you roll it, or in the case of a gasket, squeeze it down by pressure. Thus if you want to re-use a gasket then anneal it. Or buy a new one .... they are cheap enough.

Slick
 
My experience with my combat engine is neither. Use a flame ring head gasket. The copper always as leaked for me.
 
I have measured the hardness of a fresh, off the shelf gasket in comparison to a freshly annealed gasket.

Why, I can't tell you, but a freshly annealed gasket is considerably softer than any of the new gaskets I have measured.

I always anneal them. Jim
 
illf8ed said:
My experience with my combat engine is neither. Use a flame ring head gasket. The copper always as leaked for me.
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David, I´ve seen these mentioned here from time to time, do you know the thickness of the flame ring gasket?
Tommy
 
I normaly anneal mine but last time I put my head on I forgot to anneal, so far my head gasket has done over 25k and no problem yet with oil leaks, that was over 5 years ago now and I have only retouqed my head once after about 700 miles.

Ashley
 
fiatfan said:
illf8ed said:
My experience with my combat engine is neither. Use a flame ring head gasket. The copper always as leaked for me.
Click to expand...

David, I´ve seen these mentioned here from time to time, do you know the thickness of the flame ring gasket?
Tommy
Click to expand...

My just removed one is approx 0.025". Probably a little slimmer when actually fitted and clamped I guess.
 
comnoz said:
I have measured the hardness of a fresh, off the shelf gasket in comparison to a freshly annealed gasket.

Why, I can't tell you, but a freshly annealed gasket is considerably softer than any of the new gaskets I have measured.

I always anneal them. Jim
Click to expand...

At a guess, I imagine that they'd treat the copper sheet before the gasket manufacturing process. If so, the manufacturing process (straightening, punching, re-straightening, cleaning, etc) probably work hardens the copper slightly.
 
Fast Eddie said:
At a guess, I imagine that they'd treat the copper sheet before the gasket manufacturing process. If so, the manufacturing process (straightening, punching, re-straightening, cleaning, etc) probably work hardens the copper slightly.
Click to expand...

I have not witnessed head gaskets being punched, but I have seen similar type parts being punched in a commercial stamping mill. The metal, be it copper or aluminum, comes on a 4 ft diameter roll from the mill, it is fed into the stamping machine as is, then it is one and done. There is a minimal amount of straightening as the sheet comes off the roll, which in theory may do some work hardening. After that, the punch may work harden the edges where the shear occurs. Overall, I would not expect the part to increase in hardness very much, perhaps a few Rockwell points (this is based on "guts" as I have never measured such a part before and after such a punch operation).

I have measured hardness of brass before and after cold rolling to 50% original thickness .... this produces markedly increased hardness. I do not think a punch operation could work the metal as severely.

Another point to consider: it may not be desirable to use the softest material for a head gasket or for crush sealing washers. Soft material "creeps" under pressure. Creep is actually a technical term to describe a material's deformation under a load over prolonged time. In the case of a head gasket or crush washer, using an overly soft material will require re-torquing twice or more over time, whereas a harder material may only require re-torquing once.

A simple experiment: Take two identical crush sealing washers. Work harden both by cold rolling to 80% original thickness (80% should give a mild increase in hardness). Anneal one. Install each under a bolt and torque to a reasonable value for the bolt size. Re-torque after 2 weeks, 1 month, and 3 months. Compare the torque values. I predict the harder one will stabilize with fewer re-torquing, demonstrating that the softer one is creeping more than the harder. Better yet, do 3 washers, cold roll the third to 60% original thickness, and do the comparison.
This should be right up Comnoz 's alley!

Slick
 
texasSlick said:
A simple experiment: Take two identical crush sealing washers. Work harden both by cold rolling to 80% original thickness (80% should give a mild increase in hardness). Anneal one. Install each under a bolt and torque to a reasonable value for the bolt size. Re-torque after 2 weeks, 1 month, and 3 months. Compare the torque values. I predict the harder one will stabilize with fewer re-torquing, demonstrating that the softer one is creeping more than the harder. Better yet, do 3 washers, cold roll the third to 60% original thickness, and do the comparison.
This should be right up Comnoz 's alley!

Slick
Click to expand...

Or you can take a sealing washer and swallow it. Filter it through your feces. Re swallow it again for 100 cycles. When done, anneal and quench by pinching between but cheeks. The good part is that they can be any but cheeks and not necessarily your own.
Then take another sealing washer and if you are right handed stick it up your left nostril and if you are left handed.....well I thick you know. Anyhow, allow this washer to become completely encrusted. Anneal this one leaving encrustinations in place and quench in the opposing nostril of which it became encrusted.

The key here is the relationship between the curing process and the quenching as it pertains to their disposition.

Just to add to the overall analysis, repeat these procedures and anneal and quench in opposing locations. This, by all measures, will surely offer the true perspective of what the eff is going on here.
Simple!

Comnoz, I don't think I am out of line by saying tht this is not in your wheelhouse.
 
@pete.v

The principal function of this forum is education. To refute someone's post in an intellectual manner is itself educational, and the readers can digest both viewpoints and make their own choice. Your rant has no such intelligence, and offers nothing of value to the issue at hand.

Your rant is vulgar, disgusting, pointless, and a turnoff to any newcomer to this forum.

The Moderator should remove your post if you are not inclined to do so yourself.

Slick
 
texasSlick said:
The principal function of this forum is education.
Click to expand...
It is ????
....and to think that I've been using it for "entertainment purposes" all of these years.
 
texasSlick said:
@pete.v

The principal function of this forum is education. To refute someone's post in an intellectual manner is itself educational, and the readers can digest both viewpoints and make their own choice. Your rant has no such intelligence, and offers nothing of value to the issue at hand.

Your rant is vulgar, disgusting, pointless, and a turnoff to any newcomer to this forum.

The Moderator should remove your post if you are not inclined to do so yourself.

Slick
Click to expand...


Oh! Oh! But wait, there's more!!!
I find great intelligence, intellectual value and entertainment in the aforementioned posting. AND decry any and all attempts to
curtail the freedom of expression stated in the US constitution. This kind of attitude is why luminaries such as Hobot have been
driven away. I have admired Slick's contributions to this forum, but feel he over the top on this.
 
Come on guys... lets not blow a gasket...!

(Sorry, but I couldn't resist it)
 
Fast Eddie said:
Come on guys... lets not blow a gasket...!

(Sorry, but I couldn't resist it)
Click to expand...

Are you one of those people that write the jokes in Christmas crackers?
 
toppy said:
Fast Eddie said:
Come on guys... lets not blow a gasket...!

(Sorry, but I couldn't resist it)
Click to expand...

Are you one of those people that write the jokes in Christmas crackers?
Click to expand...

No, but I'm the only one in our house who laughs at them...

And I get strange looks in greetings card shops when I laugh out loud at those too!
 
pete.v said:
texasSlick said:
Slick
Click to expand...

Or you can take a sealing washer and swallow it. Filter it through your feces. Re swallow it again for 100 cycles. When done, anneal and quench by pinching between but cheeks. The good part is that they can be any but cheeks and not necessarily your own.
Then take another sealing washer and if you are right handed stick it up your left nostril and if you are left handed.....well I thick you know. Anyhow, allow this washer to become completely encrusted. Anneal this one leaving encrustinations in place and quench in the opposing nostril of which it became encrusted.

The key here is the relationship between the curing process and the quenching as it pertains to their disposition.

Just to add to the overall analysis, repeat these procedures and anneal and quench in opposing locations. This, by all measures, will surely offer the true perspective of what the eff is going on here.
Simple!

Comnoz, I don't think I am out of line by saying tht this is not in your wheelhouse.
Click to expand...



To anneal, or not to anneal, that is the question
 
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