Timing Descrepencies

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Ugh Paul I can only imagine the turmoil to discover a special plug solution. All things being equal don't even apply to identical twins, so by guess and by golly and actual trial and error is how I'll be dialing in my special but don't know what plugs might allow it to exist. I've been hurt going by kits universal timing instructions.
If I can fit and use a knock sensor via display or head phone then could fine tune for weather and fuel and altitude and gearing.
 
+1 on the Pazon Altair, Easy to set the timing, runs smoother at idle to 2500 RPM (before the ISO's isolate) and compared to my replaced Mk111 Boyer, far more stable idle.

Cheers Richard
 
ludwig said:
What I do know is that the ignition curve of the analog Boyer (up to mk3) is too flat , and that it advances too much in the lower rpm range .

Some time ago, I replaced my Commando's Boyer Bransden ignition, first with the early Tri-Spark sequential digital system, and then with the wasted spark Classic Twin digital system and to be honest, except for smoother idling with the Classic twin (which has an idle stabilisation feature) I have to say that neither of the Tri-Spark ignitions (with their different advance curves to the Boyer) seemed to make any noticeable difference to the performance or overall running when compared to the Boyer.
 
L.A.B. said:
ludwig said:
It is perfectly ok to time it at 3000 rpm and set it at 28-30 deg , depending on compression ratio .

But, at 3000 RPM, a Boyer ignition would still be several degrees away from fully advanced (9-10 degrees away according to the Dynodave graph and 8 degrees according to the NSW figures).
http://atlanticgreen.com/boyerexposed.htm
Timing Descrepencies

(Distributor degrees/RPM x2)


http://www.nocnsw.org.au/igntntmng.html
Engine Revolutions Boyer Advance
1,000 6.3 degrees (6)*
1,500 11.4 degrees (11 or 12)
1,800 14.7 degrees (15)
2,000 16.3 degrees (16)
2,500 19.6 degrees (20)
3,000 22.8 degrees (23)
3,500 26.1 degrees (26)
4,000 27.7 degrees (28)
4,200 29.4 degrees (29 or 30)
4,500 30.0 degrees (30)
5,000 31.0 degrees (31)


This part of my article was not included......"To the uninitiated, the way to look at a distributor curve is to be, (1) very aware these are distributor degrees and distributor RPM, and that there is no such thing as initial advance until you install and set these components on an engine. Only at that point should you talk in terms of initial timing and engine degrees. The timing would then be 2 times distributor degrees plus initial advance).
Therefore, all three distributor curves are zero advance at zero RPM. These curves are presented as being reasonably representative of each type of ignition system"

This is the reason I do not want people cut and pasteing my work because it will then be out of context.

I would probably not imagine more than a very few on this forum (LUDWIG FOR ONE) actually understanding the technical meaning of my work. The Boyer evolved article shows a bit more detail and the missing JPG at the end of the page would show the "installed" curves for a real comparison/ It uses "engine degrees" and "engine RPM" which adds in the "initial advance".

You can't use a distributor curve to discuss "engine timing" without the requsite math being applied.

FWIW MARK F refers to the NOCNSW Perce Butterworth article which in turn refers to my articles linked by INOA.
http://atlanticgreen.com/boyerexposed.htm
http://atlanticgreen.com/boyerevolved.htm

MARK F notes something wrong .......Yes he failed to read AND COMPREHEND my article AND gave too much credibility to Perce's snipet of data on "his" boyer engine advance curve. Not a big sin IMO

I for one would only rev my engine once to find out the advance at 5000 then repeat at 3000. I would then have my data for "that box" and would set it at 3000 for ever more.

I like nortons but hate to type.
That is why I wrote my articles because I don't want to type the same crap over and over and over.
This thread also is an example of why I do not want people cut and pasteing my work because it will then be out of context and I now have to defend my work out of context... :x
I left this forum some years ago because some people felt and expressed I had an "attitude"...well guess where it comes from....

Otherwise LAB has a heart of gold and the patience of Jobe to give all you guys all the hand holding he does .
 
dynodave said:
I like nortons but hate to type.
That is why I wrote my articles because I don't want to type the same crap over and over and over.
This thread also is an example of why I do not want people cut and pasteing my work because it will then be out of context and I now have to defend my work out of context... :x

I also posted the link to the article along with the graph so it was there for anyone to read.
 
Accepting that there is probably more bullshit spoken about ignition curves than almost any other aspect of ignition....

In the 70s it was typical to use points ignition for racing, but with the advance retard unit welded solid, don't consider this to be using no advance, in reality it is 'no retard'. Ignition is retarded to cope with starting and at lower rpm running to make the machine accelerate more smoothly on a light throttle setting. The only timing figure of concern for racing is fully advanced, because you have little interest in engine performance lower than say 4000rpm!

Yes, it can be difficult to start an engine with a fully advanced spark....because it will kick back, but this is of no concern when the bike has no kick starter!

In '76 upgrading to an ex-Thruxton works race team Lucas Rita ignition seemed like a useful thing to do, and I was able to buy one! So I fitted it and started the motor and strobed it....only to find it had no advance at all and I had to set it fully advanced.....at least I did not then need to run it to 5000 for timing checks! The accuracy of the timing was better than points, but still limited by cam chain float (as always and see furher down).

When I opened the ignition box (not something you will do with a potted Boyer) I found that a jumper wire had been soldered in to link out the advance circuit....so...circa 73/74 the Norton race team ran their ignitions fully advanced, even though they did use electronic ignition, they did not use an advance curve....at least on one ignition, but I suspect it was typical of their set up.

Second fact is that If you run too much advance you will promote detonation. What is too much, well of course it is variable since the point at which detonation occurs is affected by fuel RON rating and load.

Running as much advance as you can to deliver as much power as can be achieved with good fuel and without causing engine damage typically means on a Commando, with say a PW3 or something similar, around 32 degrees of advance. (though I would like to hear from anyone using more advance what their setup is).

28 degrees was a good compromise for road use with a mild cam and variable fuel quality. With wilder camshafts than a PW3 you might benefit from running more advance...Manx Nortons for example, as far as I know, ran around 36 degrees with more radical valve timing.

Steve Maney will supply you with an analog Boyer ignition, it is the only one he uses, it is standard Boyer. He will also supply a mounting kit to use the ignition timing direct from the crank This will remove some of the timing fluctuations due to the cam chain flutter, though of course the valve timing is still moving around a bit! The Norton experimental shop ran tests on crank driven ignition timing in '75....I used to have the MK III crank that was used for these trials in my racer in the '70s, I got it from a guy made redundant by the closure in late '75.

Using crank driven ignition timing with a standard ignition you may realise means that the advance curve as shown in ludwigs diagrams above is now halved, since we are running the ignition at engine speed not half engine speed. Ignition is set at full advance anyway, and as we have said in this race engine application we have no need to retard it for light throttle openings, so fully advanced is all that matters to us, and as some of you may know, Mr Maneys bikes are quite quick on the Daytona banking!.

A side effect of this half advance curve seems to be that at the noise testing rpm or 3750 for racing....the recorded db figure is according to Steve lower than with a half engine speed Boyer fitted! Bizzare, but useful for racers struggling to get under the noise limit.

So, fiddle with the advance curve as much as you want.....some of us would just as soon live without one...but if my ignition does have an advance curve I will certainly make sure that the ignition is correctly fully advanced by 5000 (or less!), rather than set it at 3000 and have no idea what is actually happening at max advance and indeed where that occurs, since as has been noted, ignitions packed by suppliers in the same box actually vary. :D
 
Always informative reading racing application that don't apply in daily riders. I boned up on octane a bit more to find its an expensive 8 carbon molecule that resists ignition by compression and heat so can take more of those before it goes bang. Flame speed is similar in hi or lo octane and more dependent on mechanical turbulence to spread flame fronts and jets plus how many sparks are setting it off in time. As Steve highlights our cam chain flop makes even precise electronic ignitions bounce around. Fortunately our sluggish red line rates means Norton's hardly ever need to delay full adv spark because there's not enough time to burn the fuel other wise. The possible exception would be hi CR engine with aggressive drag cam that packs in over 100% volume by ram effect at hi rpm so detonation may happen if sparked too soon before TDC the pressure heat wave may detonate. Also too adv spark may not detonate but builds pressure before TDC to work against the still rising piston.

Jim Schimdt's racer manual details the resistance to put between shorted Boyer trigger leads to increase its rate of advance to its set maximum - to pull out of slowed down for corners better. Ideal to aim for is to make most heating pressure just after TDC, but that a sliding scale with temperature, load, rpm and octane and altitude. Trial and error on the fly is best then next best on a dyno to dial it in best, then go measure to put numbers on it.

BTW all references say to set timing for best speed not ET's in 1/4 miles tests, even though best ET's win the drags. I'm so confused.
 
Hi, that Micro digital boyer seems to have a nice curve (even if it means nothing apparently!!), but anyone has experience with it ??, I should be crazy ,as I am a boyer analog addict on all my norton, so why not keep on "boyering" ???
 
marinatlas said:
I should be crazy ,as I am a boyer analog addict on all my norton, so why not keep on "boyering" ???

No offense intended, but I truly feel sorry for those who haven't "Pazoned". I'll be the first one to admit I'm at the very bottom of the totem pole when it comes to mechanical "know how" with our beloved machines. I've never read a single thread on this site (or others) about the weak point of this EI system..I think if everyone (or most of us anyway) switched, these EI discussions would become a thing of the past.
 
My Boyer MkIII has been and will continue to be a piece of crap and WILL be replaced by a Tri-Spark or Pazon this Spring....

How do they continue to stay in business with the litany of ongoing complaints that I continue to see being posted?

I never thought that I'd say this but...They'd probably be better if they came from China!
And I try to not purchase Chinese made products. Just my opinion.....
 
SteveA said:
So, fiddle with the advance curve as much as you want.....some of us would just as soon live without one...but if my ignition does have an advance curve I will certainly make sure that the ignition is correctly fully advanced by 5000 (or less!), rather than set it at 3000 and have no idea what is actually happening at max advance and indeed where that occurs, since as has been noted, ignitions packed by suppliers in the same box actually vary. :D

In looking for the best ignition choice for my racer I have read the literature from Pazon...and swapped email with the designer...and it looks impressive, and of course it is more 'advanced' than a '70s analog system.....

I would suggest that if you are fitting an ignition from scratch you would give it serious consideration for reliability and spark quality reasons.....I guess all I am saying is that too much effort is focused on refining advance curves...both by manufacturers and owners..set it up on the dyno with a programmable system in ideal conditions and go ride...it may not be that ideal anymore.....and since the Pazon etc supply a stock product, why do you think it is optimised for your head, cam, pistons, even capacity....it is optimised to cover a range of possibilities and that is as it should be for a general market product.

You know I really enjoyed my 750 Fastback on the road with points ignition! If all of this messing with advance curves is trying to make it ride like an inline or V 4....go get a Honda....

If your search is for reliable starting and road riding fit the Pazon, or it seems Tri-spark,....but just set it up like the manufacturer tells you, and strobe for full advance at 5000 rpm, like he told you...

If it is for racing, the advance curve may not be as essential as you think, but just set it up for full advance at 5000 rpm, like he told you! (which in most race motors should be 32 degrees...)

And if you run it at engine speed....just set it up for full advance at 5000 rpm, like he told you! (OK the maximum retard is now half, but max advance should still be 32 degrees...)
 
The more I think about the more I think I will give the Boyer the flick. It is the ignition system that was on the bike but who knows what faults it may have.
I already have a Pazon on an A65 and it has been faultless for 4 years.
I will check out the timing marks this weekend and take it from there. I can't see why it should be showing that it is that far advanced (39 deg) at 2500 rpm and be running o.k. I will bung a piston stop down the plug hole and work things out from there with a disk.
 
WHY ?
Peter Williams ; " I never reved the bike higher than 7600 rpm or much lower than 5000 rpm "

73 Monocoque , 73 x 89 mm , 10.5 : 1 C.R. , Lucas Rita Ign. , 33 mm Concentrics . 76 something @ 7200 , 3S cam .

WHY youre a bit carefull about who you let ride youre bikes ;

Alan Cathcart " The turbine like power delivery starts in earest at 4000 rpm once the twin exhaust megaphones stop hiccuping and the power delivery smooths out , builds strongly to a peak power at 7.400 rpm , THEN HOLDS IT TO ALMOST EIGHT GRAND -but only for a last lap dash " . :shock: :(

obviously a lack of forethought and planing if thats required , None of this honda boy stuff here , thank you . :mrgreen: :|

5 speed Quiafe in it , where he states 1000 rpm drop between gears , except the 500 rpm to Top . SO the five speed makes
life a whole lot easier .

With my dog with the 30 deg. manual advance set at 31 deg , with strong springs to hold the advance back , till ' some ' rpms
it allowed you to cruise at low rpms with a insensitive throttle and good responce , but a state of panic required dropping down a gear , or two , so as to get the settings at ' full alert ' .

The poit being : it ran like a sidevalve below 3.500 . Not jerky and snorting , which we call ' Throttle responce ' which it had past 3500 , and a bit much flywheel

I think with a strobe it came forward a few degrees at 2.500 , then advanced from 3000 tru to 4000 fairly linearlly .

Cant help thinking a manual overide for biasing the setting on the electronic would have to be usefull .All the old types
when I was in shorts thought " Full Advance " was for tyre smokeing take offs , those that tried it .

The 30 Deg BSA unit gave 1 deg. BTDC at idle , a steady 500 rpm on the 32 Mk II Amals .Oil pressure indicator half out
maybe 1/3 out stinking hot , tucked in there you could glance down , and give the throttle a blip if worried . :)

Wouldve taken a determined effort to get it past ' warm ' .
Could put the throttle anywhere if the neddle was below three , but still needed to keep an eye on it in 1st & 2nd ,
as it still got there fairly smartly , and then required ones attention as ft per sec was escalateing . :wink: :mrgreen:
 
Hi, that Micro digital boyer seems to have a nice curve (even if it means nothing apparently!!), but anyone has experience with it ??, I should be crazy ,as I am a boyer analog addict on all my norton, so why not keep on "boyering" ???
I replaced my aged (20yrs+) standard Boyer with a micro digital. It was crap and to save my ankle and shin from repeated damage I had to back off the timing to 28 deg max. That pretty much stopped it kicking back provided I gave it a substantial kick. Anything less than a full blooded kick resulted in a sore ankle/shin or whatever got in the way. I think DD's curve speaks for itself doesn't it? zero to 10 degrees and back to zero all over a 1200 rpm range. Mine was around 5 degrees ahead of the original Boyer at 2000 rpm as I recall.
 
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