The Purchasing Decision

​Hello all,

Thought I'd introduce myself having lurked on the forum for some time. I guess my profile is pretty familiar, 53 years old, former Commando 750 owner etc... My daily ride is a Vstrom 1000 and I have a Honda CBXz1000, Laverda 1000 and Jota.

Time to change the Vstrom and I fell in love with the idea of a long term 961 ownership. Until I started reading this forum!

I don't understand the ongoing issues. It's not difficult in this CAD/CAM age to design an engine and frame and fit out with quality fittings. If you invest enough to get to production then build for a few years then surely taking in owner feedback and ongoing research you identify the gremlins and fix them. Isn't that what it's about?

I've been waiting for a touring style tank/more relaxed geometry riding positioned bike since day one. An 'Interstate' version because I'm not a 20 year old boy racer. I like riding but preferably not in a yoga position.

I'm giving up on the 961 because in today's busy world I need a reliable bike, plus I don't agree to spend so much on a handbuilt bike that still has a number of identified problems, and because they insist on sports bike ergonomics which with my height and age are simply uncomfortable.

Now if I remember correctly, the British bike industry collapsed first time round because they stopped listening to their clients.

I hate my first post to be so negative but I'm going to my Triumph dealer later today to close on a T100 Bonneville as my daily runner which I'll keep for 3 years. Maybe by then, the mighty Norton might have addressed my issues.

I cling to the image of riding across Europe on a reliable, naked Norton Interstate style bike: the balls in Norton's court.

Cheers
Richard

hello Richard
you have asked me to respond to this post, so i will. it is up to you to make an advised decision on what bike will suit your needs, i think it is important to remember that all forums although a usefull tool for sharing information are full of problems, someone is far more likely to post a problem than a recommendation. i myself am guilty of not posting positive reviews when i have had every intention of doing so.
As for the range of models, Norton is a company that is rising from the ashes as it has done many times, but by comparison to triumph we are a small manufacturer, we have new models going into production, the V4RR and V4SS next month, and future models being tested for production as we speak. these models may or may not appeal to you.
as it stands we are approaching the longest continuous run in production in Norton's history.
the 961 range has had some issues over the years but no more than other manufacturers inc Triumph, but with the latest euro4 spec models we have addressed all the known issues. however moving forward starting with the V4 range future models will have UK factory designed engines (the 961 if you didn't know was inherited from Norton USA) This means strong and reliable future models.
so my final comment has to be, we wish you well in your choice of motorcycle, and just remember regardless of brand for every one person voicing there disappointment, there are another thousand happy customers who would rather ride there bikes than sit at a keyboard

Kev French

Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
Don't do it..................................................................

Richard 1047 said:

​Hello all,

Thought I'd introduce myself having lurked on the forum for some time. I guess my profile is pretty familiar, 53 years old, former Commando 750 owner etc... My daily ride is a Vstrom 1000 and I have a Honda CBXz1000, Laverda 1000 and Jota.

Time to change the Vstrom and I fell in love with the idea of a long term 961 ownership. Until I started reading this forum!

I don't understand the ongoing issues. It's not difficult in this CAD/CAM age to design an engine and frame and fit out with quality fittings. If you invest enough to get to production then build for a few years then surely taking in owner feedback and ongoing research you identify the gremlins and fix them. Isn't that what it's about?

I've been waiting for a touring style tank/more relaxed geometry riding positioned bike since day one. An 'Interstate' version because I'm not a 20 year old boy racer. I like riding but preferably not in a yoga position.

I'm giving up on the 961 because in today's busy world I need a reliable bike, plus I don't agree to spend so much on a handbuilt bike that still has a number of identified problems, and because they insist on sports bike ergonomics which with my height and age are simply uncomfortable.

Now if I remember correctly, the British bike industry collapsed first time round because they stopped listening to their clients.

I hate my first post to be so negative but I'm going to my Triumph dealer later today to close on a T100 Bonneville as my daily runner which I'll keep for 3 years. Maybe by then, the mighty Norton might have addressed my issues.

I cling to the image of riding across Europe on a reliable, naked Norton Interstate style bike: the balls in Norton's court.

Cheers
Richard

Click to expand...

I don't think you're alone Richard. It's the inability to fix known (and seemingly quite minor) flaws that has deterred me from purchasing. That and the fear of all of the stress and hassle of having to potentially deal with fixes etc.

Hence I have been seeking feedback from MK11 owners, but this is far from conclusive.

In balance though, and in disagreement with Kev, this forum has LOTS of gushing praise for the bikes from owners who obviously love the bikes.

So maybe we're missing out !?!

I had 961 NO.6 Aprox 5 years ago , ended in tears , sadness, heartache . sold it to a football manager, still got the watch though , and that's slow ..................
imagine the maddest woman you've had as a partner , x by 10 and your near .............................

Kev, thanks for the swift response but I suspect it's not the simple case of internet warrior boredom as you want to make out. Any company is only as good as it's product and if I've been put off by the perception of ongoing design and production niggles then you've lost a buyer and that should rile you. I know the Kenny Dreer story but when you started production you stated the engine had been completely reworked. Similarly the asking price focuses your target market on the mature end of the market who on the whole no longer see themselves as Barry Sheene and want a relaxed riding position.

The keyboard dig is a bit cheap, as in reality I'm a giant Norton fan, whether via my old Commando or going to the circuits to watch Steve Spray back in '89. The fact is I wanted to buy a 961 and ended up buying a 'temporary' T100 as my daily commute because I need reliability.

Please answer my original questions: what's holding you back from implementing the documented improvements to the standard bike and why can't you rejig the geometry to create an Interstate style more relaxed naked bike for us old buggers?

Yours aye
Richard

Hi Richard,
Thanks - you have prompted me to make my first post so here goes. You have gone through what all prospective owners have gone through. It all starts with that first sighting; WOW I want one of those. Then the ‘how much?’ and justification. Then the despondency of reading all the wretched posts from the early purchasers or those who attempted to purchase. Stories of legal wrangles, mechanical failures, poor servicing. But you still want one. You are now in the head/heart wrangle zone. You flip from one day to another between ‘don’t take the risk’ to ‘you need to take a risk for something you really desire’. The outcome will depend on your character.

To give you an idea of my risk profile I climb and paraglide. I live a few miles from the factory and reasoned that any problems could be ironed out by returning it to the factory and shouting, or lying in front of Stuart’s car in the car park until my bike was fixed. So I paid my deposit. I am dealing with a great guy Clem at the factory who has accommodated all my variances from the standard model and the whole spec. process has been enjoyable. I voiced my misgivings and he quoted a 94% satisfaction rating from new owners which is good by industry standards. He also made it very clear that I am not buying an off the peg Jap production bike. Within a few weeks I should have my 961 café racer in its custom paint job and extras. Delivery is when it is finished. I wouldn't have it any other way.

I believe there were serious early production problems with supplier issues, staff issues, quality issues and design flaws and I feel desperately sorry for those early purchasers whose experiences have helped refine the faults out of my machine. Unfortunately stories of these early problems hang around and the British have a perverse desire to support the underdog yet at the same time mawkishly delight in failure. Remember the Triumphs with their early snapping frames? The press loved to gloat over that and predict their demise.

The reason for the British bike industry failure was the unwillingness of the banks to lend on anything not bringing in an immediate return, so ‘new’ models were just warmed over old models doomed to failure. Plus the regimented committed low cost Japanese workforce.

I’m sure you will be pleased with the Triumph – it is a fine well sorted bike and has reasonably good looks. But you know that when you park next to a Norton with a satisfied owner you will wonder whether you should have listened to the heart…..

Best Wishes from Clive

Excellent response Clive, thank you. You're right of course everything is a calculated risk. Maybe if I sold the CBX and Laverdas I'd be more willing to roll the dice with the 961 however I'm looking for a daily ride which places greater emphasis on the bike being 'sorted'. I'd like to return to Norton as it would bring tremendous satisfaction and as you correctly state a 961 buyer doesn't want a mass produced bike, it's a matter of pride. Furthermore I wouldn't want to compete with you for a place in front of Stuart's car! Meanwhile I'll plod on with the T100. :mrgreen:

You hit the nail on the head, Clive - nice!

Richard, I enjoyed your last response, too. All I can tell you is 1) after reading all the horror stories about the early model years I never expected this bike to be a daily rider unless you are as knowledgeable and capable as the Coote's. And 2) now that I have ridden mine often enough to know the marvelous qualities (such as handling) I cannot disengage myself from the emotional crush I have on my 961. Maybe my economic situation will change that some day, but for now I am in love!

Peter

hello Richard
the keyboard comment wasn't meant as a dig, it was just an observation, dealing with the warranty aspect of Norton, i know how disproportionate the representation is, as for re vamping the 961, this may be a possibility in the future ?
the 961 has just passed Euro 4 regulations, if we had just scraped through this would mean at best another 4 to 5 years of production, as it happens the 961 passed so well it may even be possible to get it through Euro 5 giving it an 8 to 10 year future. so although there are no plans to expand this model range at the moment, who knows ? also as nice as the Triumph is, there is no denying the more un cluttered look if an air cooled engine, and we will probably be one of, if not the last company building such bikes. and certainly one of, if not the only British bike manufacturer who actually manufacture in England.

Having bought one of the first boat load in the US, I've had my share of stomach acid in the esophagus. My first two years were a waste. I'm sorted out and loving it. Put the two side by side and you'll see why some of us love our Nortons. Masses produced vanilla from Thailand vs. double caramel swirl with chili infused chocolate chunks from England. (maybe a food analogy between those two countries is not such a good move, but you get the idea). Also, the Sport is quite comfortable. A little more lean and bend, but not much. The Triumph is a gentleman's easy going commuter, the Norton fills that bad ass niche of yesteryear. I'm sure whatever decision you make for yourself, you'll be happy.

Copied from Richard 1047 : I've been waiting for a touring style tank/more relaxed geometry riding positioned bike since day one. An 'Interstate' version because I'm not a 20 year old boy racer. I like riding but preferably not in a yoga position.

Is it the foot peg position that you are unhappy with ? The handlebar Models (Sport, SF) with a riser spacer make for an all day ride . There is room for more than 1 inch riser. I have installed an additional 1 inch spacer ( 1 inch spacer + factory spacer) that makes it about perfect for me. So is it the foot pegs then ?

Richard 1047,

My 961 Café Racer came over on the same boat as Britfan60’s Sport in December 2013, and I too had a few issues that had to get sorted over the following year.
The problems were addressed but I was lucky to have several bikes to ride while the 961’s issues got resolved by my dealer.
Now the bike is as reliable as a cast iron stove. Still, I don’t know that I would use the 961 to do long range touring.
I don’t know if non-Norton dealers would be able to provide much assistance in the event of a failure on the road.

There is a gentleman on this forum that spent quite a considerable time riding his 961 through Canada, and the US. - BLIGHTYBRIT/SF .
I suppose he could provide you with insight into what it’s like to take the 961 on a long range journey.

A friend of mine has a 1200 Thruxton R and made me ride it. I didn't want too because I knew what would happen. Fabulous torque, fantastic gearbox and clutch, suspension great, [altho he'd had it worked on] ergonomic's sort of boy racer, style, well that's where the Triumph and I part ways. Hideous tank seams that look like early Honda, fake fuel injection covers that try to look like Amal Monoblocks but without cables rising from the top, not really air-cooled, etc. When you buy a 961, you are buying an updated, new 850 Commando. There is nothing fake about it.
When you park them side by side, guess which one the boys lust after. It was explained to me thus, The 961 is like the hot babe everyone wants, along with the upkeep of her. The Triumph is the one that is IMHO, an English Honda, more like the practical girl you should introduce to your mother. I'm sort of glad the 961 has some rough edges, It gives me something to smooth out. Mark.

Britjunkie said:

A friend of mine has a 1200 Thruxton R and made me ride it. I didn't want too because I knew what would happen. Fabulous torque, fantastic gearbox and clutch, suspension great, [altho he'd had it worked on] ergonomic's sort of boy racer, style, well that's where the Triumph and I part ways. Hideous tank seams that look like early Honda, fake fuel injection covers that try to look like Amal Monoblocks but without cables rising from the top, not really air-cooled, etc. When you buy a 961, you are buying an updated, new 850 Commando. There is nothing fake about it.

Click to expand...

Exactly the way I feel about the Thruxton R. Can't get past the disquise. And no Alloy or CF wheel option.

After riding the 961 Sport I highly doubt I'd be impressed by Thruxton's handling.

Time for a photo , this was day I got mine 15 months ago, rode 200 miles home in the rain,I nearly bought a 1200 explorer & changed my mind,and glad I did ,bike works for me & im 6ft 1" ,got handlebar risers & is comfortable ride,will replace original grips with gel ones as there a touch of ware on the throttle side, done nearly 11,000 miles now, a least have a test ride if u can Richard

Ive posted plenty of recommendations. Even supplied tons of info back to the factory. Made manuals to help everyone. Couldnt be anymore transparent with issue and how to overcome them. Probaly sold over 50 bikes for Norton and I didnt get paid for any of them. I get at least 20 emails a week asking for help. I've convinced people to keep their problematic bikes and helped them get fixed and they have thanked me profusely. If ever a forum. This one is the most positive as far as norton goes. Cant please everyone. And the 961 commando or domi is more like a thruxton than a t100 so its a poor comparison. Its unfortunate that you chose another bike. But that is great. I hate to respond and add fuel to fire but Simon is right, and this is a pointless thread. Please delete it Jerry. There is zero value here.

A 961 is very reliable once dialed in. Ask many of us. Its a love slash hate but a lot of what's great with the 961 is first hand seeing how easy it is to make it great. Once you become this involved. You realize you have an amazing product. But posting about the riding position isnt right is just unfortunate for you. No need to slander.

I guess that said a lot about a person. If you have any argument then try re-reading your words.

Richard

NortonFactoryUK said:

hello Richard
you have asked me to respond to this post, so i will. it is up to you to make an advised decision on what bike will suit your needs, i think it is important to remember that all forums although a usefull tool for sharing information are full of problems, someone is far more likely to post a problem than a recommendation. i myself am guilty of not posting positive reviews when i have had every intention of doing so.
As for the range of models, Norton is a company that is rising from the ashes as it has done many times, but by comparison to triumph we are a small manufacturer, we have new models going into production, the V4RR and V4SS next month, and future models being tested for production as we speak. these models may or may not appeal to you.
as it stands we are approaching the longest continuous run in production in Norton's history.
the 961 range has had some issues over the years but no more than other manufacturers inc Triumph, but with the latest euro4 spec models we have addressed all the known issues. however moving forward starting with the V4 range future models will have UK factory designed engines (the 961 if you didn't know was inherited from Norton USA) This means strong and reliable future models.
so my final comment has to be, we wish you well in your choice of motorcycle, and just remember regardless of brand for every one person voicing there disappointment, there are another thousand happy customers who would rather ride there bikes than sit at a keyboard

Kev French

Click to expand...

BLIGHTYBRIT/SF said:

Time for a photo , this was day I got mine 15 months ago, rode 200 miles home in the rain,I nearly bought a 1200 explorer & changed my mind,and glad I did ,bike works for me & im 6ft 1" ,got handlebar risers & is comfortable ride,will replace original grips with gel ones as there a touch of ware on the throttle side, done nearly 11,000 miles now, a least have a test ride if u can Richard

Click to expand...

200 mls in the rain , new rubber......on your brand new bike, love it. Ride of your life fella!!

@ Richard,

Over 200 reads and nearly 20 responses in 24 hours, and you want the thread deleting !?

Forums are for discussion. People are discussing (politely / respectfully). No case, at all, for deleting.

NortonFactoryUK said:

as it happens the 961 passed so well it may even be possible to get it through Euro 5 giving it an 8 to 10 year future. so although there are no plans to expand this model range at the moment, who knows ?

Click to expand...

If the engine has a further 10 year production life then what's the downside of developing a relaxed naked sports/tourer? You have ten years to recover the investment and make money! The longer you delay, the shorter the lifespan and profit potential. Two people on this thread have said they're interested so surely there're others to make it viable? Plus of course it would create improved economies of scale and production line efficiency? :shock: