The Commando Weave

Oh yeah granted I made stupid errors on every bike I caused to wobble and/or weave, but boy howdy I sure lucked on Peel that can take my fumbling in stride, same errors but way different behavior reactions to it. Stupid zig zag in lane practice now fouls the stands but still need a good curve to foul the R muffler. So just leaning far over is not enough to induce weave in a stock Combat. My Cdo buddy and I did hours joy ride Sunday and couldn't do some sections with much G's d/t the pavement waves and gap, still pretty brisk but more work not to start weaving and plus just not going in too hot. I didn't know if Wes was dreading it like me till he asked a restaurant owner about the bad repaired turns. Told County can hardly keep hw's open d/t the rock falls and wash outs. Its was working up hard braking for these I'm now questioning my choice of 100 front instead of 110 I'm used to.

I'm not that addicted to speed but the acceleration especially pointed into radius center. My tool of choice is a slightly modified Commando. What I did run up against in my contests was being passed drag racing out of the lesser turns by 900's and above. That's main reason for the blown big block but if it interferes with Peels Neutral handling then its only good for straight line events then taken off for better fun on road and track. I know better than pick a fight on my Trixie Combat. My SV will out turn stock Commando but takes more work and valve train buzz annoys so not that fun to me. About to get the last of the goat out of it and give to a friend to use. When both Peel and SuVee running at same time, when I jumped on SV after Peel had a flat to return to work appointments I almost crashed by stoppie and popping unintended wheelies going by the mere commuting load feel on Peel. That was on secondary pavement before hwy, so had to be more timid on SV corner cripple.

The 'weave' occurs mainly when the rear iso is not adjusted sufficiently, depending on the condition of the rubbers the amount of clearance will vary between machines, I adjust it by feel rather than measuring. Rear tyre pressure can also contribute to the weave, as do worn shocks, ensure the wheels alignment is spot on. Severe weave occurs when the iso rubbers are cactus and/or the swing arm is slack. Rapid occilation fore and aft of the fork sliders occurs at faster speeds and is caused by worn either top or bottom bushes, if the movement occurs when new bushes are fitted then the sliders are most likely worn. Tyre balance does contribute to the movement also but this is indicated at much lower speed. I replaced the standard spring type top mount with one supplied by Colorado Norton Works and the 'hinge' feeling became a thing of the past and transformed the handling amazingly. The rubbers mounting of the standard fitting allows sideways movement this is negated by the CNW part but still allows the engine to rock fore and aft a little.
Norton tried to reach a compromise fitting iso-mountings to benifit rider comfort (reducing vibration) when the mounts are in good condition and adjusted properly everything is fine.

Agree with you 100%.

In my case I believe a major contributing factor was the attitude of the bike (at flat out high speed) with respect to the pavement in conjunction with the tires. The bike was more or less vertical yet it was traversing pavement which was banked. I was running wider, lower profile 18" AVON race super venoms with a narrower profile in the front. Isolastics and swingarm bushings were up to snuff, maybe even too tight. Wheel alignment - not sure as I may have already dropped the bike at least once prior. The top isolastic was a Norvil piece. The subject bike had the the old isolastic rubber doughnuts replaced but I do not recall if I added isolastic rubber doughnuts (for racing) as recommended by others.

I've seen Herb Becker use a pair of teflon pucks screwed into the frame which slid between an aluminum forked plate thingy bolted to the head for the top head steady. Completely free movement fore, aft, up and down but tight for side to side.

The only high to moderate speed weave I ever experienced was on grooved road surface or ............when in a "slow" race.

Appreciate the relevant input.

Flat out on banked surface but bike almost vertical > felt some weave eh. Well that's what I mean about what behaves stable on level-ish grade near limits - don't behave so stable. If you wet that surface or throw sand to marbles on it with gusting conditions you can explore this phenomena much deeper and quicker,ugh. On a steep banked turn, the front does not need to counter steer away from the turn as much, if fact it might jerk itself into actual road direction following which means straight steering. Up to a point this can be resisted by pilot, but at some point it will over come pilot habits and chassis tolerance which we see as sudden tank slap wobbles into full accelerating weave. You know how little forks need to move off center to change direction at speed, a silly mm or two, so it only takes a little bit of walking around on wide tire contact or frame twist to get too exciting too fast. A sudden flip into straight steer tends to hi side a bike upward. Straight steer lifts rear tire back to more vertical, which makes it bite into surface better, while counter steering forces rear to lean over more and loose traction.

You all feel the extra security with stiffer set up, but to me that only brings our rubber baby buggies up near stability of solid-rigid chassis cycles, like Seeley or space age frame elites. Plenty of video of new age wonders loosing it in turns and over crests by weave antics. I find the rigids snap back too harsh, even though they can take more conflict than stock isolastic chassis. I don't want no surprises so press into bike upsets to know behavior limits ahead of time. The swash plates are a great improvement that McRae claims is equal to rigid stability and a bit better as no vibes to annoy. Ms Peel gets back up swash plates on her swing arm for its long arm sway.

But as modern elites builders have found out their chassis needs some give to take up the tire conflicts, but as we see it ain't solved their weave onset, just pushed limits a tiny bit more before it hits. Peel has wimpy links top and front but robust at low rear. Allows scary frame contortions to take a lot of tire conflict but no rebound cycles on release. I can induce wobble and weave in other bikes but can not in Ms Peel. She is difference than any other and its real obvious when push comes to shove, both in security and sense of low effort to do so. I'm a novice rider as universally determined by any one that rides, so that is how superior she is > to let a fool like me get away with not knowing how to handle bikes well.

Try the low air zig zags to safely find your bikes behavior if pressed pass its limits, ahead of time.

Getting a bit more insights on this weave thing in Cdo's recently. First surprise was while unloaded encountered a paved dome open area w/o sand/grit/gravel/holes/lumps, so took chance to test fouling rear set peg going like 10 mph, lower and lower tighter and tighter in natural straight steer till suddenly chassis felt like it bucked while trying to shove the front tire side ways. UGH. So i have discovered another limit to avoid by not going too slow when scraping sharply. This relates to my first Gravel lesions - crashing in turns I was going too slow for, under 10 mph, front washes out counter steering. Guess how many splats that took to reverse innate reflexes.

Then with two cases of beer on back. The surprise onset was just turning around above walking speed in tight parking lot on idling power -not testing anything, forks wobbled then whole chassis weaved-flopped - about like the above unloaded. I straightened up to settle it. Found If I used a bit of front or rear brake drag it settled down to lean and sharply slow turn better. I was too slow in too tight quarters to give gas or use engine drag. This is important revelation to me as this slow and sharp is only needed rarely but sure felt like a flat tire right before putting feet down. Also noted that Trixie tended to wobble/weave on initial mild take off if ever so slightly leaned while loaded. Don't normally do that, just head out full upright.

On way home loaded behind slow traffic got bored so started the zig zag escalations for another interesting surprise, the fork action and bike 'fling' was distinctly lighter and quicker and no upsets up to 50's mph. Later in the clear worked zigs up to 70's and if felt gooder and easier than unloaded. Unloading forks is fascinating fun. Loads don't bother normal sweeping leaned power turns at over legal speeds but sure can if surface lumpy or windy but the pendulum rate is slower than unloaded.

I only had '99 pre-Peel but 6 months before total re-do, so never got to explore all the quirks of an un-tammed Commando. Linked Peel when very heavy loaded also gave a big shudder weave on initial motion but I thought it was just the tall load shifting on the bungees. Never felt her do that with just 100 lb of feed bags or 3 cases of beer strapped on firmly. Peel still has some masses to attach like battery and was thinking how to move as much of that forward but now don't think I better. Its crazy making when my own experiments force me to go against most accepted wisdom. Will play with the front to back bias more till I make firm sense of my needs.

I thought the commando weave was what you did in friday night traffic between the cars when they were doing 20K' and you were doing 120. In the intrests of road safety one should only do it on the way to the pub, not coming home!

l'm with Frankdamp on this, all those years of Commando riding l never experienced weave, but l sure wish all the wasted time in the 70s and 80s was as easy to fix as the Flashbackk's kill switch.

+1

Never experienced it on any motorcycle either, other than what I cited earlier in this thread. Thrashed quite a selection of bikes in my life.

The only commando weave I got was when I go over a bridge that has a grated open plank surface. And that was when I ran K81 tt100. Kind of like the bike was doing the funky chicken walk.
CNN
:shock:

Hehe, I get into a bit of weave every ride in lumpy corners but its an old drunken friend I know better than let drive the bike so don't ride as wild or willy as the experts. On a smooth place with decent banks last week goy the rear to skip out on power/lean some w/o no hint of weave, going over 80. Couple days ago I was in river valley level-ish section of commute running late so pressing 90-100 in opens then slowed to 65 to run wide near paint line leaning L so head wasn't so near the double yellow when THE Hinge hit just before apex - just as i cleared the shielding bluff face blast hit, whowhoo. Wasn't pressing this routine turn on purpose to avoid any chance of weave , surprised again but easy to let off and hang on to settle it right out, Weave is always lurking when conditions splash together. Today in an easy but lumpy turn at legal 55 it gave chassis a bit of a hop a long onset i had to ease up for my nerves.

One of the strangest surfaces last year was a wooden bridge the planks ran with traffic but the grain had worn unevenly randomly. Just going 25 mph felt like a ghost working the forks. It ain't just me as my bud Wes now and then remarks how hard his was working lumpy turns to control or avoid the Hinge when i was following and thinking how fast he was taken the lines w/o seeming a worry like I was. Nope same experience, innate to all un-tammed Cdo's.

If you havn't experienced the famous Cod Hinge, then might not realize how close to the edge you may be getting w/o knowing.

Good informative thread ruined by the ramblings of Hobot?

Skip over all the waffle Hobot writes and there was some useful stuff in here!

Sorry Hobot.... but you need to back it down a notch if my opinion counts for anything!

How about you start your own thread for rambling and post your blog on there rather than filling everyone elses threads with static.

Mike

its amazing how coherent some of the the threads become if you use the "ignore this person" feature! :mrgreen:

conkers said:

Good informative thread ruined by the ramblings of Hobot?

Skip over all the waffle Hobot writes and there was some useful stuff in here!

Sorry Hobot.... but you need to back it down a notch if my opinion counts for anything!

How about you start your own thread for rambling and post your blog on there rather than filling everyone elses threads with static.

Mike

Click to expand...

conkers said:

Good informative thread ruined by the ramblings of Hobot?

Skip over all the waffle Hobot writes and there was some useful stuff in here!

Sorry Hobot.... but you need to back it down a notch if my opinion counts for anything!

How about you start your own thread for rambling and post your blog on there rather than filling everyone elses threads with static.

Mike

Click to expand...

+1

It's like playing chess with a pidgeon; The pidgeon knocks over the pieces, cr*ps all over the board and struts around as though it were victorious.

mikegray660 said:

its amazing how coherent some of the the threads become if you use the "ignore this person" feature! :mrgreen:

Click to expand...

Seriously, is there such a feature? We could name it the BS filter.

I only bait out of morbid curiosity to see what comes up next. It's a pity the technical matters get cr*pped all over with cartoons, babbling and in my opinion, pure self indulgence.

Dances with Shrapnel said:

conkers said:

Good informative thread ruined by the ramblings of Hobot?

Skip over all the waffle Hobot writes and there was some useful stuff in here!

Sorry Hobot.... but you need to back it down a notch if my opinion counts for anything!

How about you start your own thread for rambling and post your blog on there rather than filling everyone elses threads with static.

Mike

Click to expand...

+1

It's like playing chess with a pidgeon; The pidgeon knocks over the pieces, cr*ps all over the board and struts around as though it were victorious.

mikegray660 said:

its amazing how coherent some of the the threads become if you use the "ignore this person" feature! :mrgreen:

Click to expand...

Seriously, is there such a feature? We could name it the BS filter.

I only bait out of morbid curiosity to see what comes up next. It's a pity the technical matters get cr*pped all over with cartoons, babbling and in my opinion, pure self indulgence.

Click to expand...

Good goin guys! All you did was open a can of worms. Let em have it steve.

We could name it the BS filter = Hobot filter! :shock:

mikegray660 said:

its amazing how coherent some of the the threads become if you use the "ignore this person" feature! :mrgreen:

Click to expand...

Seriously, is there such a feature? We could name it the BS filter.
.[/quote]

Quite frankly, I'd rather read any of hobot cryptic prose than to read this bs banter about bs filters. What a bunch of bs. How about a bs filter for bs filters.

Should be able to find plenty of that on the "cryptic pros" list or the "random neural firing" list.

Everybody on this list contributes meaningful discourse. Let's just say it's the ratio of rationale coherent content to line noise in each and evrybody's contributions.

Just my opinion and apparently the opinion of a few others on this list and other lists.

I believe Steve(Hobot) to be an individual that I would probably like if I met him.

He seems to be a smart guy who has passion for life and certainly for Norton Commandos.

However, I get the strong sense that he just cannot stop talking about himself, and when most other people simply respond to to a thread they do so to the point and without making the post all about them personally.
Steve replies, often multiply times, to seemingly every thread, and the thread drift then becomes about him,
and others responding to him, tired of Mrs Trixie and Madam Peel, etc

Narcissism:

Narcissism is a term with a wide range of meanings, depending on whether it is used to describe a central concept of psychoanalytic theory, a mental illness, a social or cultural problem, or simply a personality trait. Except in the sense of primary narcissism or healthy self-love, "narcissism" usually is used to describe some kind of problem in a person or group's relationships with self and others. In everyday speech, "narcissism" often means egoism, vanity, conceit, or simple selfishness.

highdesert said:

I believe Steve(Hobot) to be an individual that I would probably like if I met him.

Click to expand...

+1

highdesert said:

He seems to be a smart guy who has passion for life and certainly for Norton Commandos.

Click to expand...

+1

Dances with Shrapnel said:

Everybody on this list contributes meaningful discourse.

Click to expand...

You can't be serious? :mrgreen:

Just my opinion and apparently the opinion of a few others on this list and other lists.

Click to expand...

Like the man said, we do have a choice. Use the "ignore this person" feature! You can use this with me too if you so desire. I am just kidding of course. I want you to read my "meaningful discourse".
Oh what a tangled Commando web we weive.

No big whoop, all in a days fun.