Swing Arm Lube, Revisited

Sorry if this has been discussed a length but doing a search for swing arm lube did not answer this question.

The holes drilled at the factory into the swing arm spindle are very small, what 1/16?

Anyway, I honestly cannot see how a thick oil like the recommended 140 weight, or even 90 gear lube, is going to get down through those tiny holes to lube.

It seems a much lighter oil, even a fork weight oil, would be much more effectively likely to insure that lube gets down through the holes and actually then
has a chance to get between the spindle and the bushings.

Appreciate comments

highdesert said:

Sorry if this has been discussed a length but doing a search for swing arm lube did not answer this question.

The holes drilled at the factory into the swing arm spindle are very small, what 1/16?

Anyway, I honestly cannot see how a thick oil like the recommended 140 weight, or even 90 gear lube, is going to get down through those tiny holes to lube.

It seems a much lighter oil, even a fork weight oil, would be much more effectively likely to insure that lube gets down through the holes and actually then
has a chance to get between the spindle and the bushings.

Appreciate comments

Click to expand...

Which is why there is a zerk to feed the oil.

Factory spindle oil system is only designed to retain
thick oil for a few 1000 miles or a month or two static.
If holes bigger its just make a mess faster and dry out faster.

A perfect custom indexed cradle and swing arm with tight
new bushes and oil rings filled with break in oil so thick
would not drip off a tooth pick for a day, hung unloaded
over very cold winter will leak it all out on floor before
spring hits. Uggh I gave up on oil there forever more.

The nipple is for a pump oiler not a grease gun which
often was used which can't get through spindle holes
which rusts and grinds lips impossible to remove
w/o permanent swingarm damage skewing.

Be British stoic and service it about once a season
spending rest of the season in grime or
put grease zerts though the swing arm and bushes
after plugging spindle holes and once a year
grease a few pumps and will last about a life time
and not be grinding dry after long storage.

You can have the constant oil feeds devices
as harks back to total lost oiling tradition.

hobot

I have a small grease pump gun I fill with gear lube and pump in through the zerk. Once it's full, I have never seen any leakage, and it doesn't seem to need refilling very often - check it maybe every 5K miles.

Just lucky, I guess.

It better be very very light and flowing grease to get thru
holes that tend to rust clog. So no hardly ever need topping.
But I suppose with enough pumps pressure some grease may
get through. Greasing inside of spindle in well known no no.

My 'prefect' and new very thick oil test in freezing temps
to thicken up more yet still all leaked out was being
feed by a 1/2" clear tube for at least an extra oz reservoir.
I could watch it in disgust week by week drain down.

Be disciplined to strain and oil and clean and strain
and oil and clean or face a terror to get spindle
out, often it the next owner with found thoughts
of you leaving him swearing.

hobot

Hobot, not sure if you're responding to me, but I use 90W gear lube, not grease. My PO did use grease, but I cleaned that out of there (and put in new bushings).

I refurbished my swingarm in 2004.
New orings, spindle(because PO used grease and it was pitted.
As soon as I saw the pitting I figured the brass bushes must be scored the same.
A pair of Andover Norton bushes pressed in w/ a hydraulic press at a frame straigtening shop.
Right place w/ right tools in other words.
I reassembled it.
I took the top locating bolt out and got a oil can w/ a flexible fill line.
I filled the can w/ 140 and pumped it into the spindle hole.
A couple squirts and go find something to do
A couple squirts and go have dinner.
Any way you get the picture it is not pit crew speed.
But by the following day it would not take any more as it was full.
Returned the bolt and have not had any leaks since '04.
Again, new components and took my time replacing same.
Swing arm was painted by the way not powder coated.
I also siliconed the rubber orings so they would not become chaffed on the craddle.
We will see how long this lasts but so far 6 yrs is ok w/ me :mrgreen:
Do it right do it once hopefully.
A rush job leads to leaks I've found out.
Marshal

No one has addressed my question, although I thank everyone for their unrelated personal comments about lube and their own bikes.

My original question had to do with the actual size of the holes in the spindle being big enough to insure that lube,,
a lube of a certain verified weight, actually got through and got between the spindle and bushings.

Again, my speculation only, 140w or 90w, or whatever, how do we actually know it got through the holes?

My guess is no one really knows UNLESS someone used a specific weight from assembled DRY, and then took it all
apart again, and was able to verify that the lube used, whatever weight, actually got through.

At it now sits, it seems using a heavy lube is only to say it stays inside the spindle longer, as in it does not leak out as
fast as lighter lube. This says nothing as it what weight is verified to actually go down those 1/16 holes,
and then get between the spindle and bushing.

Yes, I understand that lube leaking from the right hand side of the swing arm is not in any way indicative
that it coming from between the spindle and bushing, but could be simply leaking out from inside the spindle past the o ring
to the outside.

I am going to try 15weight fork oil to make a real effort, still just an unverified guess, that light oil will get there.
And even then, I will not be taking it all apart to verify there is colored fork oil between the spindle and bushing.

The question makes sense to me. I just reassembled my swingarm and since I had other items left to put together I left the center bolt out so I could see if the oil topped up. So I squirted 90w in through the zerk fitting until it came out the center hole. Went off and left it. Eventually enough air came out the bolt hole that I kept repeating the process to top it up. As it stands now this has been going on daily for over a week and the swingarm is not topped up as there is still air escaping from the passages and I can find no idication of leaking when I wipe the area with a clean cloth.

Conclusion (mine)...it is very difficult to get oil to all areas inside that assembly. However, I also think that the repetative movement of the swingarm when in use would be effective in spreading it around as long as there is enough in the center cavity to act as a reservoir.

To all concerned Briank, Marshal and Rvich,

1. I'm very tickled and impressed at report of non weeping swig arm,
and think its d/t the clever use of the silicone goop. Cool.

2. As long as its more of less liquid oil and keep on pumping
into the zert on regular basis it might eventually fill to wet
most the bearing surfaces and holes size is sufficient.

3. The on going air burps implies to me that the oil is
not filling the whole space and that the spindle holes
better be oriented close to BDC to keep oil at holes
to feed bushes.

4. Might consider a drilled cap/lock block with tube reservoir
to both give some oil head above air pocket and sight tube to
stay ahead of it, in rare case it weeps out.

5. I've dealt with 3 Cdo's that the spindle was both
rusted to swollen locking crust and also lip ridge on
spindle that no amount of turning could get it to
clear bushes for removal.

1st one took a couple weeks of brutal puller and pounding
that both broke my hand bones with 3 lb sludge
and tweaked swing arm that expert famous shop
could not fix to ever pass spindle again.

2nd, my buddies '71 we gave up to let it grind spindle
and bushes away enough someday should just fall out.
The gross slack in the swing arm is almsot undetectable in
fast switch back testing but for minor twitch on direction
changes but does tend to induce wobble on held
fast sweepers.

3rd, my New Orleans Trixie Combat, after 10 min
with almost stripping out puller and sparks off
sludge hammer, realized best not force stuff to
damage vitals, so used cutting torch and sacrificed
the swing arm for saving of rest of me and bikes integrity.

6. Should be easy to clay plug spindle ends and feed
oil in the bolt hole and see what flows out per oil
grade and temp.
I've into Peel's swing arm right now and was about to
epoxy spindle holes up for grease set up but could
do flow experiments with a little help in
setting up to learn what you want to know?
Outline a procedure and lets see for sure.

hobot

Besides the dubious size of the holes in the spindle, I also question the accepted norm of using a heavy weight oil for the lube,

A much lighter oil, even 20-50 engine oil or a fork oil, stands a better chance of getting down the holes, and then also
stands a better chance of being absorbed by the bronze bushings. (40 years old and likely dry)

We should question everything just on principle, and the recommended, by someone 40 years ago, 140 weight does not
make sense, to me.

Highdersert I like your attitude even if I think its not going
to work well unless kept drooling wet, but how the heck
will we really know unless someone brave like you attempts
it long term.

Please do your experiment and stay in touch with results.

hobot

Hobot, a while back on this forum, someone posted they had switched to ATF in the gearbox. They said that the much lighter ATF lube stood a better chance
of being thrown around and actually keeping the gears lubed than the heavy recommended 90 weight. Don't know about this, but I like the challenging
the norm attitude on general principle.

I am doing a complete rebuild so my swing arm spindle is visible and dry inside.
I will fill it through the right side hole the zerk fitting covers with engine oil, or maybe even fork oil, for the reasons stated earlier.

Seems like it would be easy to plug the holes in the ends of the spindle, fill it with 90wt, and see what leaks out of the 1/16" holes. I do know if you had a 1/16" hole in a jug of 90wt (or even 140wt), it would leak out.

Greg

highdesert said:

Besides the dubious size of the holes in the spindle, I also question the accepted norm of using a heavy weight oil for the lube,

A much lighter oil, even 20-50 engine oil or a fork oil, stands a better chance of getting down the holes, and then also
stands a better chance of being absorbed by the bronze bushings. (40 years old and likely dry)

Click to expand...

http://www.ondrives.com/pdf/bearings/oilites_Tech.pdf

"1) Low viscosity oil for low temperatures, high speeds or light loads.
2) High viscosity oil for high temperatures, low speeds or heavy loads.
3) High viscosity index oil for wide variations in operating temperatures.
4) Oxidation stable oils for long-period usage.
5) Oil with ‘oiliness’ additives for boundary conditions.
6) Oil of lesser ‘oiliness’ for full film (hydrodynamic) conditions.
7) Oil with Extreme Pressure (E.P.) additives for very heavy or shock loads."

"A replenishment of oil should be carried out after 1000 hours of use or
yearly. These intervals can be extended for bearings with relatively thick
walls and shortened for low porosity bearings. Bearings running submerged
in oil or in oil-splash will not require replenishment."

_________________________________________________

"Oilite" (sintered bronze) does not need te be kept constantly wet because it is porous (approx. 19% porosity) so it absorbs all the oil it requires to function over an extended period and only requires periodic re-lubrication with a reasonably small amount of oil, and if oil is seen to leak out of the pivot after re-lubrication, then that will be is excess oil resulting from the pivot being OVER-OILED.

All you need to do when pumping oil through the spindle is to to use a scriber or similar to push the tiny ball bearing in the oil nipple off its seat after a few pumps. Air will escape under pressure. Repeating this a few times will allow you to fill the spindle with oil in under a minute.

I had mine out over the winter but didn't rebuild as the swingarm had no play. I did fill it w/90w140 thru the center bolt and it must have accepted over 2 oz. It's now leaking slowly. I suspect it doesn't need to be completely topped off at every maintenance interval, just enough to impregnate the oilite bush.

I remove the grease nipple and inject 140W through a syringe, (not with the needle just the body, a big one from a vet the type the use on horses). If you can be bothered, and I think its worth it , is to unscrew the centre bolt on top of the swing arm housing to let air out and overflow when the swingarm is full.
I have previously used Pentrite Liquid Grease which is about 200W and after 5 years it was still present in the swingarm when I stripped it down.

Mick

Okay, I'm curious - why don't you folks just put gear lube in a grease pump gun and pump it in through the zerk?

I just wish I could find straight 140 or 200.

I just googled pentrite and couldnt get anywhere.

Any ideas?