Starting a cold Commando

lawman · Jul 27, 2013

Went to go for a ride this morning but the Commando would not start. No matter what I did it would not give even a peep. I have just changed from 20/50 to straight 50 oil.

It was very cold and the bike had not been started for a while and I was told that the bike may need some kind of warming before trying to start it. A heater of some sort but there is no power in my garage so I was wondering if there was a type of heater that did not require electricity to warm the motor before trying to kick it over.

I know this is a pretty silly question but I missed out on a ride today.

1973 850. Would an electric start kit make any difference in cold weather?

Frank

ashman · Jul 27, 2013

You should not need to heat up your bike before starting it, I run 50 grade oil all year round, the winters we have here in Aus don't get as cold as say England, I ran my Amals for most ot its life without chokes, your Norton should have started even if it was cold, but in winter maybe run 20/50 grade oil, I start my bike up at 5:45 in the mornings even in winter to go to work and it mostly start first or second kick, how cold was it when you went to start it, my Norton loves the cold and have never had any problems with starting it when the temp is down low.

Ashley

Ps I also run a oil cooler on my Norton all year round.

lawman · Jul 27, 2013

Thanks Ashman,

It would have been around 5C or lower in the garage this morning at around 6 am.

Frank

Nortiboy · Jul 27, 2013

lawman said:
It would have been around 5C or lower in the garage this morning at around 6 am.

I regularly do the mountains and its below 0c. Flood the amals (several drips off the bottom of the bowl each side). 1 kick always. Pommie bikes just love the cold. What ignition do you have ?. Lovely day for a ride.

concours · Jul 27, 2013

At -40F, I've used coals from the woodstove in a casserole dish, blocked up tight under the crankcase. 6 cyl Jeep started right up. Be careful with ticklers though... :shock:

Mark F · Jul 27, 2013

Sure it hasn't just wet sumped and your trying to kick it over with a sump full of thick, cold oil?
If you haven't started it for a while this can happen. Makes it harder to start as the engine will not turn over fast enough. Have a look inside your oil tank and if the level is down your oil will be in your sump.
Drain it and tip it back in your oil tank.
Should start easy with a good carb flood.
I don't think I would change my oil to straight 50 in winter. Probably alright in Queensland though.

Hobot · Jul 27, 2013

W/o electric heater you are risking fumes or chemical spills. With electrics like a light bulb or heater ya risk scortches or flames. Basically as stated ticking the carbs and/or choke on and kicking till the little sparks and slight combustion warms the jugs enough to pop over TDC on it own and eventually start then work throttle so don't just stall out till will idle on its own or can ride off on easy throttle til warmed. Thinner oil does help but I've started in 20F on 50 grade but it took like 5 min of kicking with hints of combustion till it finally got going, ugh, which brings a sweat wrapped up as much as needed to spend some time at speed in 20'F wind.

mike996 · Jul 27, 2013

1. Electric start will make it a non-issue

2. Straight 50 WT is pretty heavy for cold starts in cold WX after sitting for more than a a few days.

3. My 73 was a one-kick starter from cold if it had been run within the last week. OTOH, If it has set up for several month or more it may take 8-10 to get any sign of life from it. I always shut off the fuel and run the carbs dry if I am not going to be on the bike for more than a week to reduce the possibility of the carbs gumming up. After installing an E-start, months of non-running didn't make any difference - it started promptly, taking 3-4 revolutions after 2 months of sitting - basically 1-2 seconds to start instead of instantly if run at all recently. Tri-spark ignition.

Matt Spencer · Jul 27, 2013

Richen . Push through four compressions . THEN put Ign. ON .

MFB · Jul 29, 2013

Did you check for sparks?

RennieK · Jul 29, 2013

5C ain't cold, it's got to be something else. Make sure all your ground wires are tightened down properly.

acotrel · Jul 29, 2013

I still haven't figured out how to stop wet sumping without having to block off the oil feed pipe and re-attach it each time. I bought a good quality cock, and intended to fit it into the line, however it worries me doing that and I think all the switching devices I could use to lock out the ignition would become a nuisance. Does the commando pump still pass oil into the sump when it is new ?

Hobot · Jul 29, 2013

Aw ugh Alan, that inquiry leaves yourself open for Rohan to jump up and dn on. Norton gear pumps simply never completely seal and there's alway a head of oil over them to weep through fast or slow till its all in the sump. I personally think some wet sump is good for the cam lobes but if sitting up very long not a bad ID to shut off oil supply or may have nil oil in tank to supply the rod shells till enough pumped back. Some say wet sump starts can blow out oil seal but ain't happened to me yet on two Combats nor my buddies '71 or hardly anyone, but does happen so your call to just kick er off, drain it 1st or put a valve in. Except for the risk of knocking it off a sump plug drain valve might make the most sense in our quirky Commandos.

dennisgb · Jul 29, 2013

Or forgetting to turn that valve back on when you start it again...umm...I think I'll just deal with the wet sumping...

DogT · Jul 29, 2013

I've got a nice little prox switch and a 40A relay to the ignition on my valve. Won't run unless it's fully open.

That doesn't take care of the lack of lube to the cam though.

Dave
69S

1up3down · Jul 29, 2013

He did not state that he had a problem kicking it over, making all the talk about heaters and oil mute.

I would start with the easy questions first:

did you really turn on both petcocks or forget to?

go turn the ignition so the headlight comes on, does it? If not your battery has gone dead

90% of what are thought to be carb solutions end up with electrical resolution

if the head light comes on, then remove both spark plugs and have your assistant hold them against the head with the leads connect while you kick the motor through with the ignition on in your dark garage

can you clearly see both plugs sparking?

dennisgb · Jul 29, 2013

DogT said:
I've got a nice little prox switch and a 40A relay to the ignition on my valve. Won't run unless it's fully open.

That doesn't take care of the lack of lube to the cam though.

Dave
69S

Oh yeah an electrical interlock...but what if it fails? Don't like to think there is a way to shut off the oil supply...

G-Force · Jul 29, 2013

Possibly the petrol has gone off in your tank. I'd do the easy cheap things first, replace petrol, check your battery is holding charge and the connections are good and throw in a new pair of plugs, if it's still a tuff start check for a good spark when kicking over. HT leads are a common fail too. Normally mine is an easier start when cold but is much harder to kick over

1up3down · Jul 29, 2013

I have run with a simple on/off valve in the oil line for over 20 years now

and have never "forgot" to turn the valve to on

it is as automatic to me as turning on the petcocks

that is not to say I don't like Dave's electrical solution with his valve, I do, I like it a lot

Hobot · Jul 29, 2013

Except for some decrease in cam-liter surfaces on dry sump starts, if ya really think about this and consider the frail and exposed nature of key switch, makes most sense to me to combine valve and ignition switch and eliminate the key altogether. Would tend to foil thieves in parking lots as who be confused for a while on how to turn it on. I can't tell ya the number of times locking up my Commando has prevented it being carried off w/o me. Don't bypass the bar kill though.

Starting a cold Commando

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