Stainless spokes, tapered vs straight

I have a Dunlop wheelset laced with Buchanan straight spokes on the front disk wheel, and tapered spokes on the rear (drum).

Why run tapered on the rear drum and not the front?
I need to have them build a matching front drum wheel and am wondering if I should do straight gauge or tapered.

Buchanans says early Commandos came stock from the factory with tapered spokes but every stock wheel I've seen look straight gauge to me.

Second question, I assume the same stainless spokes can be used on aluminum or steel rims with a nipple change (smaller diameter for aluminum rims)?

Buchanan's site says .250 or .300 were stock, and they list .250 and .281 as available now.
http://www.buchananspokes.com/products/ ... norton.asp

Compared to Buchanans, I know didley about lacing wheels. If they are drilling rims for you then I would use the nipples recommended by them. If you have wheels that are drilled, then you need to match the nipples to the size of the hole in the rim. FWIW, I laced both front and back with straight stainless spokes.

Russ

IiRC lighter spokes are called stepped or necked down and Bucannan's sells them for Commando rims in SS or Alu rims but front spokes may need to be bent-bowed some as no one sells a rim with the extreme spoke hole angles of Norton.

It will be obvious if the spokes are butted. The early ones are. The later drums I dont know. The disc are straight or
at least mine was.
It think it depends on if you wish to stay original or not. Everyone seems to be going to SS now. You can get butted SS
and you can get plated carbon steel.
Walridge offers a lot of spoke and nipple stuff. Pretty sure it is from Central Wheel and it may well be manufactured in
the east despite what CW claims. You would have to talk to Mike and nail him down on that.

Butted front spokes were never used on a Commando Disked wheel. Originals were 8g on disk and 9g on other side. For the rears the butted would be 8/10g as used 1972-3 but 1974 used single diameter 9g originally according to my records.
This was quoted from what Mike Partridge (Walridge Motors) emailed to me.
regards,
Tom
CNN

So the only advantage of 8/10 stepped down is weight savings, but were not original on early Commandos despite what their website says.

hobot said:

as no one sells a rim with the extreme spoke hole angles of Norton.

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My local wheel builder here can dimple and punch holes to match any rim.
(Note that holes that are punched are stronger than if they have been drilled).
And then have them chromed if required.
I had a real odd ball of an old rim with strange lacing pattern copied by them, and they did a perfect imitation.

They also have some old aircraft hubs/wheels on display, with copied odd lacing pattern, when did you last see an aircraft with laced wheels. !
hth.

elefantrider said:

So the only advantage of 8/10 stepped down is weight savings, but were not original on early Commandos despite what their website says.

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Be careful here. ?
Early 850 had fairly light spokes, (in the back wheel) which were fairly quickly changed for something heavier,
the extra torque of the 850 was causing spoke breakages in the back wheels.
Nortons put out a bulletin about this ?

That odd lacing pattern in the front disc wheel probably needed a good strong spoke to begin with.
Front drum brake spokes may be a different story....

heres two photos of original 1959 and 1968 front wheel spokes

elefantrider said:

So the only advantage of 8/10 stepped down is weight savings, but were not original on early Commandos despite what their website says.

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No, I don't think so. My understadning is that butted spokes have the 'mass' where required for stiffness, and the 'flex' in the length that is required in a spoke naturally. So, a butted spoke, due to its increased flexibility, is stronger than a spoke would be if it had the same gauge as the butted part for its entire length. The weight saving is a pure additional 'side effect'.

" as no one sells a rim with the extreme spoke hole angles of Norton."
Steve, I assume you mean side angle for the disc front as the vertical angle is only 14 degrees
the drums have a vertical angle of 25 degrees , bigger drums like the Yamaha TZ 260mm drum brake have
a much greater vertical angle , I had the rims specially made for these 32 or 33 degrees.
But the neck angle of the outer left side Norton disc front spokes is very great because of the big hub/rim offset.

hobot said:

IiRC lighter spokes are called stepped or necked down and Bucannan's sells them for Commando rims in SS or Alu rims but front spokes may need to be bent-bowed some as no one sells a rim with the extreme spoke hole angles of Norton.

Click to expand...

Steve, you need to check out Buchanan's web site again. He sells all sorts of alloy rims drilled properly for Commandos, including shouldered Borranis, shouldered and non-shouldered Excell, non-shouldered DID, etc., in 18" and 19" (as well as some 17", if you desire), in widths from WM! to WM5. The rims come to Buchanan without holes, and they drill them to the pattern required. They definitely sell the common 18" and 19" WM2 and WM3 rims drilled for Commandos. For the disk brake front wheel, they only list a spoke set for 19" wheels, but I know from experience that they can also do the disk brake front wheel with SS spokes and 18" rims. No need to bend the spokes.

If you prefer steel rims, he carries those too, but I'm not familiar with the details. I've had over a dozen Norton wheels done by Buchanan over the years with alloy rims and stainless spokes, and never a problem.

Ken

Ken, Mr. Buchannan & I had pow wows on this over Peel so may ask him yourself &or talk to the ancient Norton wheel builders I can drop names for. I had to correct their files on parts numbers and Cdo model & year range so if ya can get easy correct fits from Buchannan now to guestion my remarks then quess why. Their Excell front rim had brake side well marked for Combat but they sent wrong spoke set, going by long time charts on the mo/yr/serial number/model name, which of course confused them no end over my competence, so more friendly chats with Mr. Big , which lead to many more months delays of Peel not going yet. Even so Peel's front spokes are under a good bending strain which Mr. B and then my experience friends said yep just fine forgetabout it. Mr. B did talk me out of alloy nipples for the necked down spokes. BTW I still have most all the spokes so time to time send a few off to friends with bad ones. Excells even non valanced are rather heavy so of course after Peel's done they started selling the lighter vinteage versions again.

Steve, Kenny Buchanan is a friend of mine, so next time I see him, I'll ask if he remembers you. I'm guessing he will.

Hard to understand why you had so many problems. Between 1973 and somewhere in the late '80s I had Buchanan's (starting back before Kenny was in charge) lace up 18 " alloy rims (WM2, WM3, and 2.5") to Commando cush drive rear hubs, Norvil front hubs, standard Commando disk brake hubs (front and rear), Manx front and rear hubs, and Barnes quick change hubs, and never had a problem. I don't doubt that they could have made a mistake on yours. But they are pretty well known for the quality of their work.

Back in the late '90s or early 2000s a friend of mine in Texas talked them into making titanium spikes for his Commando project. He had to supply the right size titanium welding rods, and Buchanan's headed one end and rolled the threads in the other. I lost track of my friend, so I don't know how durable the wheels were, but it was an interesting project. I still have some of the cutoffs that he gave me, and occasionally use them for welding.

Yes do see if he knows what you just stated and some Combat 71-72-73 blurred era corrrections from an Arakansas case but as a virgin wheel builder it threw me into looping depression thinking it was my deficiency so got passed to him by staff on two issues, one, ongoing crisis delayed me some months, again, to find out what was sent flat would not work - after a few attempts- so only thing I could do was beg for their help, ie: for someone who'd believe me and two, accepting the wrong spoke set back after this interval, which he did. Double check if their rim holer can accomadate the angles Norton disc brake steel wheels have and if so when was that accomplished. I enjoyed speaking with him and not a bitch about Buchannan just more confusing factors in Peel project than believable. You may have not run into Peel's type poop but thankgoodness my old Brit Iron friends had and helped most of all with practical calming advice guiding my hammer blows to finish er off.

Often the problem we have with spoke length is down to the rim well depth

In the UK aftermarket rims all vary from stock Dunlop /Jones pattern , look at the dimple height well pressing this variance can be as much as 5mm on some chrome / stainless replacement rims

Original Dunlop rims have a very pronounced dimple with a shallow well depth most aftermarket rims have a shallow dimple with a variable well depth

if your spoke supplier is providing OEM replacement sets they may be 4-5mm to long for aftermarket chrome / stainless rims

Alloy rims are manufactured from thicker grade material so also require spoke length adjustments

What Hobut was missing

send your wheels to a top notch builder like Buchanan and they will adjust the spoke length to match the job in front of them
and then provide you with very nicely finished wheels this is the part of the service you pay for

order your spokes for DIY fit and you need to specify exact lengths YOU REQUIRE just quoting part numbers wont work OEM length`s may not be suitable
there are many variables in the way individual rims are pierced / well depth wall thickness ETC which all effect the required spoke length

On my MKIII Norton I rebuilt the wheels with ss spokes. We used to high speed tour with it. Two up loaded with a lot of stuff. Found a broken spoke one season in the rear wheel. Called the wheel builder up as I thought it could be a big problem and they would be concerned. Nope. They did not care. Replaced that broken spoke and the next season I had another. It is my believe that stainless steel is not the proper material for spokes. It gets stressed when bent or threaded.And it can guall when screwed together. Doesn't have the tensile strength. Take a strum on your ss spokes with a thin screwdriver, you know the way you can tell if one is loose, then do the same with a carbon steel spoked wheel, you will hear the difference, and the ss spoke will be a dull thud and the carbon steel a nice ring. Of course its the greatest thing with the wheel rebuilders as they do not have to cadmium or zinc plate anything so ss is great! The ss's don't fit right, the rebuilders usually do not use the proper sized head , because "one size fits all" and they do not get the sharp bends necessary to get the spoke to come out of the hub nice. Sure is pretty though! JustMyHumbleOpinion from some experience with stainless steel hardware in the nuclear industry and spokes

Duh when I finally got believed I'd been sent wrong spokes by Buchannan charts in error as stuck out nipples or didn't even reach nipples -replaced- every signle spoke ended essensitally perfectly flush with the nipples and true to a few 1000th's centered on axle and .0015 to .0025" vertically d/t the wavy shape spokes as tight as I got em make the rather imperfect Excell rims lay 'square'. If I didn't have to buy a handful of cars and replace metal roof, regrow broken necks, concusions and major joints dangling by hide in this interval I'd of paid Kenny Cummings to build up one of his rough-ready race cycles sent to CNW for nicer fihishing then comnoz to dial in the fuel injectors to ride off in the rain and mud at night leaving trails of blood-guts-and brains of dead anmials and dumb me.

I found it interesting that Buchanan's spokes have rolled threads. Not cut. This might make a difference in the longevity of the stainless spokes. There are a lot of spokes out there that have cut threads.

Russ