Sir Eddy's Rocket

We are only talking a few thou on the cylinder centreline here ??

The question really is did Nortons design it like that, or is it that it grew like topsy, and thats the measurement they ended up with ??

Rohan said:

We are only talking a few thou on the cylinder centreline here ??

The question really is did Nortons design it like that, or is it that it grew like topsy, and thats the measurement they ended up with ??

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Dunno Nortons actual thinking on this topic,, or if it was what they thought would make things line up better? have no idea.

What I DO know is that, (very simplified explanation here,,there is a lot of engineering and indepth articles out there on this if you care to research it) with a motor the cylinder being in perfect alignment straight up and down, the thinking is its hard at TDC and BDC on the parts, cranks pushed out the bottom, bearings stressed, loads on the skirts of the pistons, stress's on the rods, etc etc,,,

So some designers felt that by offsetting the cylinder slightly from centerline might make things a bit easier,, tipping over the cliff so to speak,,

Eddy and I did a lot of research on this, im sure others consulted as well, but about 5-6 years back when we did that, but found the best material related to Toyota and their engine designs, and yes, apparently they do it on most if not all their engines,.,

So Eddy felt that Norton got it wrong, in mockups and testing he said the Norton Cylinder IS offset a bit, but claimed it was the wrong direction, Next time i saw the cases for the racer, he had trued up all the surfaces, and moved the studs to where he thought they should be,, Backside direction IIRC correctly,,

This was all some time ago, and Sir Eddy is no longer with us, but theres plenty of material on this topic out there.

Now in contrast, most if not all Norton cases are dimensionally off a bit anyway,, some more than others, Eddy would blue print cases for people, correct the factory maufacturing deviations. He did some BSA cases for me as well on a twin, those were way off, I took a series of pix of him doing this and im afraid i have been busy as of late but planned ot post a picture series of some of these blue printing techniques these were done about 15 months ago in Eddys shop and show interesting details about how far off things can be,
Theres a local guy who some years back kept seizing his Goldstar engine while racing, Eddy looked at it and said it was obvious what was wrong, you could see the marks on the cylinder and piston, but the guy balked at the price, (Jeez, its a GS for christs sake,, how much wouldit cost to replace if he grenaded it?)
so the guy, I wont name him, reassy his motor, went racing, and seized it up again. It was redundant to say "I told you so"

Desaxe and reverse desaxe engines/cylinders have been around for centuries, and the arguments still rage about which is best.

Some Henderson4 engines have a 1/4" on the crankshaft - apparently some designer didn't allow for the camshaft lobes - or so the story goes !. Doesn't seem to make make difference - although they couldn't get as much all-out speed as the hotted up Ace4 of the same era....

The main reason for backwards offset crank center in bore line is to reduce the snatch down acceleration spikes on piston and crank to allow higher rpms. Norton likely did it slightly forward [backwards for rpm advantage] to avoid taking out the head oil drain passage as bores expanded. Longer rods and shorter stroke also ease piston jerk spikes at TDC/BDC. Sir Eddie didn't miss any trick there ever was in tolerating rpm, detonation and heat dumping. Hope you get the wheelbase spec confrimed soon. Some might be gained with a chopper-ish fork rake.

We are going to run with the stock wheel base out of the book +/- 9.5%. The swing arm and the oil tank are out at the fab shop with hopes to get back for an early Christmas present. We have been talking about maybe going to a belt drive but we need to mock up the crank fired ignition to see if we have room. I sure wish my dad was here to answer some of he unknowns. He has been watching over my shoulder making sure I understand what his plan was and if not he directs me to the right people that know or have an idea of what his plan was. Even with that he still had a lot in his head, Les knows the motor plans but we still have some unknowns until we start mocking it up. Lots and lots of mods...
It looks like I need to bite the bullet and order up Charlie Toy fairing and seat, any one have one laying in the garage that they need to get out of the way?

Wow! I just checked out the Charlie Toy setup from Airtech, and it's almost $2,000 for seat and fairing. It looks really good, but the price has convinced me to stick with the unstreamlined classes for a while. For the curious, you can see the Charlie Toy setup here, along with other Airtech landspeed bodywork.

http://www.airtech-streamlining.com/lan ... dspeed.htm

Ken

lcrken said:

Wow! I just checked out the Charlie Toy setup from Airtech, and it's almost $2,000 for seat and fairing. It looks really good, but the price has convinced me to stick with the unstreamlined classes for a while. For the curious, you can see the Charlie Toy setup here, along with other Airtech landspeed bodywork.

http://www.airtech-streamlining.com/lan ... dspeed.htm

Ken

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Guess we need to sell a few more finned rocker covers, side covers, and points covers.(Step and order some now laddies) Plus we got those Support T shirts coming. The idea is to compete in several classes. over 100mph its all Aerodynamics, so if you want to go fast in that class, the best fairing out there sure looks like one of these. if theres something better, we would sure appreciate hearing about it.
look at it this way..lots and lots of acreage for Sponsors names on it. wink wink, nod nod.
BTW, thanks for all your help Ken. much appreciated. Ill tell Kenny hi for you today.

These guys may offer a better deal, those Aprilia G.P. 250s went 190+ mph on ~110hp during roadraces..
http://tyga-performance.com/site/index. ... 75_952_953

Ken Canaga has an spare streamliner cluttering his shop, might be useful.

photo and graph filled article on various motorcycle drag reduction
http://www.schultzengineering.us/aero.htm

Craig Vetter's site
http://www.craigvetter.com/pages/main_d ... Story.html

Various construction methods and tire drag tests and other details
http://www.velomobiel.nl/allert/Recumbe ... orbike.htm

pictures galore for ideas
http://www.google.com/search?q=motorcyc ... 33&bih=416

Ken please let me know what you have? We have a roadracing fairing and seat but are seriously looking at popping for the Charlie Toy setup.
I haven't been able to find anyone that makes one like it.

Have you got a mathematical projection of probable performance for the machine? [ available torque @ rpm as +ve vs gearing/drag as -ve ?].
Bear in mind that those 250 G.P. bikes had big bucks spent on getting them as slippery [aero-wise] as was feasible on the racetrack..

J.A.W. said:

Have you got a mathematical projection of probable performance for the machine? [ available torque @ rpm as +ve vs gearing/drag as -ve ?].
Bear in mind that those 250 G.P. bikes had big bucks spent on getting them as slippery [aero-wise] as was feasible on the racetrack..

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Much of that was worked out long ago,, Eddy did the math on much of it, Les Barker did a lot too.. Les has access to somebody with top shelf racing software and computer systems and its all been worked out, I doubt you will see it printed up here, but a lot of thats been worked out.

Im not sure about the aerodynamics though,, But the motor and bike should hit the marks for HP and Torque to make the records for the classes,, for a fairing or streamlined, thats a whole different class, Paul (One of Eddy sons) wants to set it up to enter as many classes as we can manage to do,,
why not if we have to drive all that way, all that cost, and time???? However have to be realistic as well, its a learning curve to race on the Salt.
Eddy had plenty of race experience back in the day, Paul road raced in the 1980s,,Les Barker is a local legend in the racing community,,
I did Car racing in the 1980s and stayed as a spectator ever since as Im obsessive Compulsive and racing,,, well, I found myself eating peanut butter and walking to work each day to save enough to race every weekend.

So the idea is to try and be prepared as possible, and pursue every angle,, The aerodynamics is just one part of this, Hobots links though give a lot to think about..

Excellent references there hobot!

Thank you Sir Eddie for lifting our heads-hearts out of the ordinary and a son with similar genetic desires to leave the world behind.

For the naked runs ask racer Canaga about the mph difference of having a 'young' supple neck to keep eyes on the path while helmet tucked down tight as can be. There other thing i've asked Ken and other landspeeders and drag racers about is the stability of a Commando and its wheel base, to be told "no end in sight", so wheel base should not be the limiting factor unless in a hill climbing event. Brian Slark told us that Rollie had steamlining parties with guests eyeballing and positioning him till he got the best posture programmed in his nervous system. A ride in cold air is how I get sense of what's in the wind too much. Rules no longer allow one to lay out long and naked as Superman Rollie did.



Here's a simpleton online down&dirty engine hp calculator. It implies 65 hp range. Other's require many more engine details
http://www.bgsoflex.com/roughhp.html

http://www.google.com/#hl=en&tbo=d&scli ... =p&pdl=300

HP vs Speed calc's, RBRacing has helped Peel project in a number of areas. Their hp-speed calculator implies mid 140's mph with street type fairing.
http://www.rbracing-rsr.com/aerohpcalc.html

@Son of Siredward: Be cognizant of the spatial relationship between the Center of Gravity (C of G) and Center of Pressure (C of Pressure) when going to a more full fairing/streamline. Tony Foale covers this in his book Motorcycle Handling and Chasis Design. The proper spatial relationship provides stability under speed with cross winds.

A simplified explanation is to get the C of P behind and level with the C of G. This is why you often time find fins on the backs of streamliners (and probably rockets).

Not sure how applicable this will be with the anticipated speeds for this build but worth noting.

Thanks for the photos. I'm interested in the full squish head. I've seen it done on a Harley, and often wondered if it is the right thing to do. Has the head in the photo been welded, and have you heat treated it to get the hardness/strength back ?

Good question Aco, I`ve seen combustion chamber inserts that fasten to the head structure & are replaced as needful depending on usage/fuel/pressures & etc.
Hobot, thanks for posting those speed/drag/power calculators, - as an exercise - I `ll have to drag out P.Williams published J.P.N. aero figures & give them a run..

acotrel said:

Thanks for the photos. I'm interested in the full squish head. I've seen it done on a Harley, and often wondered if it is the right thing to do. Has the head in the photo been welded, and have you heat treated it to get the hardness/strength back ?

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The head was done a few years back, It was EXTREMELY Modified as you can see. also, the valves are special as well with very small stems. It was top secret for a long time, and i was really surprised when Eddy started circulating pictures of it as he had told me originally not to show them to anyone. I asked recently before he passed, and he said he wasnt worried about it any longer.

Also you might notice the finning was enlarged extensively as well as if you can get a side shot,, theres ducts on the head and cyl that directs airflow.

I can tell you IT does work, and very well., plus those Singh grooves. Hobot found out about them some years back and has ranted about them for years on many forums. They work. The guy who did most of the head work is a local legend for several decades. Les Barker at the vintageadvantage in Vancouver Washington. Many of the NW racers use him. He could answer most of your questions but he doesnt do a lot on the internet.

Maybe Paul might have more to offer,,but most likely you would have to go visit him. If you are serious about getting work done, He is one of the best out there for what he does. But tread lightly. He doesnt suffer fools gladly.

Grumpy bastards sometimes seek to have their rude-brusque-arrogant lack of common courtesy excused as 'not suffering fools gladly', or so I`ve been told , by some bloody fool...'L.O.L.

I have laughed and cried thinking of where this bike would be if my dad was still here. One thing I can say is that my father was content and happy and his goal was to build this bike to hold a LSR for a long time to come. The intent here is to ask for a positive response to keep Sir Eddy's dream moving forward. I know everyone has there own ideas of how Nortons should be put together. I can say that my father has proven that he knew what he was doing when it comes to building a high horsepower Norton motor, this clear back in the days when he raced in the 60's and had the factory guys come out to see why his 650 smoked eveyone in the class. It all came down to set up, it was perfectly balanced and tuned and nothing more, he just got it.
To answer the fairing questions and concerns, we will end up going with a Charlie Toy setup for the salt, we are looking for the best streamlined fairing for a straight line run and this is the fairing that has proven itself at the LSR events.
We have done the build sheet on the motor and show that it will end up around 70 to 75 hp.

This 500cc twin destroked to 59.5mm with a bore of 73mm has the left crankshaft throw rotated backwards to create a 270/450 deg. firing cycle. Its equipped with a billet crank 6.5" Carrillo rods producing a 2.774 rod stroke ration. The head has been welded up with "Full-Squish" combustion chambers as well as full cylinder head mod including welded exhaust port floors, intake porting, oversized values w/6mm stem diameters, needle-roller rockers etc. We have fitted a high volume dry sump oil pump to facilitate under piston squirters and direct spray camshaft/follower lubrication. The lifter blocks have been machined to utilize BSA radius-style cam followers and mounted a crankshaft driven ignition mounted on the left side (no breaker drive snout required on the camshaft)

Hobot and Doug both have been helping out with some of the unknows when it comes to the drive system and if we can convert to a belt drive if needed. I appreciate all they are doing to make sure we get it right.
Again thank you all for the input on this thread.
I am going to post a great email about Sir Eddy from one of his fellow racer back at Westwood the first time Sir Eddy showed up in the early 60's.