Shorei battery, do they last???

I'm going to be buying a new battery soon & have been thinking about buying a Shorei for several reasons. Just wondering how they have been surviving in the shaky Norton world. I like the lite small size & how they are said to last even if not charged for a while but have any of you Norton folk had real experience with them & can they really last ?? Thanks, Glenn.

I have 2 ballistic performance batteries, over a year so far so good.

Here are some actual facts, as tested in a non-biased environment. (and of course, lot's of opinion) http://advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=757934

I purchased a 12 cell Ballistic for my Egli project bike. It has worked fine so far, about a year. Last week I purchased a tiny 4 cell Ballistic for my Oz Rapide. It has a fairly small battery box and quite a lot of wiring within the box, so a big battery wont fit. In the past I used a Yuasa YB 7 ( 7amp hour) lead acid or equivalent. Knowing it was a small battery, I had to be careful with power, but it worked fine. I run a 60 watt halogen head light, points coil ignition and often run a heated vest. The Alton just keeps up but it all works
The sales rep at Ballistic suggested the 4 cell would have about 20% more reserve than the YB7 lead acid. On top of that it is much smaller, so that left more room for the wiring and fuse holders.
I've found that the battery has nowhere near the reserve capacity of the YB7, never mind the 20% surplus promised.
If I leave the bike idling for five minutes (discharging about 4 amps) the battery voltage drops from 13 volts to about 5. 5, at which point the engine dies and will not start again until the battery is charged. I have a very small charger, just a step up from a trickle charger (10 watt?) and that restores the battery to around 13 volts in about twenty minutes. So not a lot of energy is stored in it obviously.
I tried running the headlight with engine off to measure the voltage drop. What happens is quite interesting. The voltage stays in a workable range, above 12 volts, for about four minutes, then falls off a cliff right down to five volts in about thirty seconds.

So if you choose to buy one of these batteries, make sure it has a much greater capacity rating than you require. Double would be good.

Glen

I have had 3 AGM batteries go bad in so many years. I am expecting much better results from the 14ah Shorei. Being encased in its own high density rubber is a plus.
Frankly, they are just too new to have a service life record for our application. If one goes bad, I am sure we will hear about it.

My experience with LI batteries is that they are very fragile. Not in a mechanical sense but electrically. The charge and discharge rates and voltages need to be just right or they don't perform very well. That is often not the case with the normal Commando.

Just like a battery powered drill they go from starting to get weak to dead- instantly. That is the built in protection circuit in action. A LI battery can not be deep discharged without permanent cell damage. Jim

I think I will put a big old lead acid Costco lawn tractor battery in the top box and wire it in, which begs the question why even bother with the tiny LI battery in the battery box? I guess because it is in there and sort of working. And I am currently too lazy to bother removing it!
I know that when we go travelling with the bike at some point I will leave the headlight on for a few minutes, or end up idling in traffic at which point the Li battery on it's own will discharge to nothing, bike will die, no fun. A bigger Li battery might be fine, but the capacity numbers given out by the manufacturer are way beyond optimistic.

Glen

Hehehe with 'tiny battery reserves one's gets to play mental amp meter energy monitoring games. I learned to live with a 2 ah gel cell on Peel. With the Sparx 215 watt 3 phase, Peel's Boyer fire would go out in couple min. below 1000 rpm idle. Did not break even til 1800 rpm with lights on. Non issue until in towns with a few stop lights, she'd die and only a jump or swift push off got going again. Does any one know if a low Li battery will allow a push start to spin charger enough ignition works? I've had dead-bad batteries pull down charger volts, so had to disconnect to get going and keep the blips up.

http://www.shoraipower.com/Rider-Reports.html

http://electronics.howstuffworks.com/ev ... ttery2.htm

http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/arti ... _batteries

Li-ion does not need to be fully charged, as is the case with lead acid, nor is it desirable to do so. In fact, it is better not to fully charge, because high voltages stresses the battery. Choosing a lower voltage threshold, or eliminating the saturation charge altogether, prolongs battery life but this reduces the runtime. Since the consumer market promotes maximum runtime, these chargers go for maximum capacity rather than extended service life.

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worntorn said:

I think I will put a big old lead acid Costco lawn tractor battery in the top box and wire it in, which begs the question why even bother with the tiny LI battery in the battery box? I guess because it is in there and sort of working. And I am currently too lazy to bother removing it!
I know that when we go travelling with the bike at some point I will leave the headlight on for a few minutes, or end up idling in traffic at which point the Li battery on it's own will discharge to nothing, bike will die, no fun. A bigger Li battery might be fine, but the capacity numbers given out by the manufacturer are way beyond optimistic.

Glen

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That sounds like my first experience several years back. Traveling Hwy 287 in Texas at night. The highway goes through a small town every few miles and each time I came into town and stopped at 3 or 4 stoplights I would run out of battery unless I kept the RPMs over 3000. After a few push starts [not fun] I ended up just turning off the headlight as soon as I got into town. Luckily the authorities didn't see me. Jim

ended up just turning off the headlight as soon as I got into town. Luckily the authorities didn't see me. Jim

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Made me laugh and cry to learn your straining in the dim same limits the rest of us, funny when its street lighted cop dodging, crying when its moonless tree covered ruts and even brake light use stalls ya. In light drissle foggy stop light sections I found one's boot or peg rubber will skip right off and rear tire just slide instead of starting in the middle of rush hour crowding. I would not travel a long ways away w/o the biggest battery or two I can fit and don't give a squat about the mass for touring except its likely smoother. Around here on Peel I may just stick in a 9v battery and let the charger take it from there.

I've had one in my Ducati for the last two years. It's still going strong and has a surprising ability to retain charge.

Very pleased with the Shorai in my Commando though it's only been in there a couple of months. I did leave the ignition switch on all night about a month ago and in the morning the battery showed around 6V. Charging with a normal trickle charger brought it back just fine with no apparent issues. I'm quite impressed so far...

worntorn said:

I've found that the battery has nowhere near the reserve capacity of the YB7, never mind the 20% surplus promised.
So if you choose to buy one of these batteries, make sure it has a much greater capacity rating than you require. Double would be good.

Glen

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X3 would be just about right according to a sales rep that sells Shorei. Here's a quote:

"Be aware, Shorai LiFePO4 batteries are rated with the equivalent capacity of their AGM counterparts. However, their true capacity is going to be roughly 1/3 of that rating. For example, the LFX18L1-BS12 says it‘s a 18AH PbEq. But it will perform like a 6 AH AGM battery if you use it for deep cycle purposes."

I'm assuming that, "...if you use it for deep cycle purposes." is the another way of saying that this is what will happen if you accidently run it till it's discharged, then that would pretty much describe what you've experienced with the 4 cell Ballistic. It fits with what you would expect from a 2.3AH LiFePO4 battery. Ballistic's "Lead Acid Equivalent Amperage" is only valid if you never go near "deep cycle purposes". Then it all of a sudden behaves like a 2.3AH battery. That appears to be the characteristic discharge profile of a any LiFePO4 battery.

The timing of this thread is perfect because I was about to get one of the Shorei 7AH batteries. I need all the room I can get under the seat because I'm looking to make room for a catch bottle to go with the oil filter and fuse block that's already in there.
The good news is that Shorai uses the same Type 2 case for the 7AH, 9AH, and 14AH batteries.

Length 4.45"
Width 2.28"
Height 3.50"

So, if I get their 14AH battery then it should behave like around a 5AH AGM battery at crunch time. I'm hoping this is right.



http://www.shoraipower.com/
http://www.batterystuff.com/kb/frequent ... n-faq.html
http://www.ballisticparts.com/products/ ... /4cell.php

rpatton, that sounds about right. I might drop might salesperson a note, since he is selling these things he needs to know that they don't perform nearly as well as he believes they do.

Glen

mike996 said:

Very pleased with the Shorai in my Commando though it's only been in there a couple of months. I did leave the ignition switch on all night about a month ago and in the morning the battery showed around 6V. Charging with a normal trickle charger brought it back just fine with no apparent issues. I'm quite impressed so far...

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The LI battery can not be deep discharged [at least not like a lead acid]. When you left your switch on the actual cells in the battery are only able to discharge to around 80% at which time the electronic switch in the battery disconnects to prevent any further drain. The 6 volts you read on your voltmeter is just the leakage current through the silicone switch in the battery. If the battery were to be left shorted for a few weeks, that tiny bit of leakage current would eventually drain the cells in the battery rendering it useless. Jim

rpatton, I believe your post is misleading, are mistaken and perhaps have misquoted.

Here is the whole paragraph which explains your misconseption.

The point is that the lithium 6ah cell compared to the AGM 18ah cell is 90% usable in relationship to the 30% usability of the AGM (lead Acid). When crunch time come there will be plenty to spare.

"Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries are a completely different chemistry. Not only do they have less than 1/3 the internal resistance per capacity than do lead-acid, they are also the ultimate "deep-cycle" battery. The internal "completely discharged" capacity of a Shorai battery is 1/3 the rated "PbEq" capacity. For example, the LFX18 12V series have 6Ah cells internally. But the cells are capable of 90% discharge without damage and while retaining more cranking ability, compared to roughly 30% for lead-acid. As such, the USABLE capacity(or "reserve capacity") of an LFX18 12V battery is the same or better than a 18AHr-rated lead acid battery, while providing superior cranking performance and a vast reduction in weight. The Shorai PbEq AH (lead-acid equivalent) rating system therefore allows users to compare a very different technology from lead-acid, but to still compare “apples to apples”.

pvisseriii said:

rpatton, I believe your post is misleading, are mistaken and perhaps have misquoted.

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OK, you caught me. I don't know what made me think I could get away with it. I just can't help myself when I need to mislead, make mistakes, and misquote.

The truth is the company line at Ballistic is the state of the art as far as obfuscation and corporate circumlocution goes. They could give lessons in misleading and misquoting. What they are saying is that unlike those shabby, inefficient Lead Acid batteries, the LiFePO4 battery is capable of delivering 90%, (really 80%), of it's capacity, which is actually around 30% of the AGM.

Cy's post on the Adventure Rider forum explains it well. He keeps using the terms like, "Real Amp Hour Ratings" to distinguish between real AH ratings and the pretend "Lead-Acid Equivalent" rating. To be fair, it's not pretend if you only use it to describe the battery's bursts of cranking power, and not to describe the battery's capacity to deliver a given amount of current over a length of time, AmpHours. Cy said the Lithium battery can dump such bursts of current that you could weld with it. It is a good source of info, skip the video.

http://advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=757934

"....your heated gear doesn't understand all those fancy PB/EQ ratings battery mfg use. heated gear draws real amps... if your lithium battery say has only 4.6 amp hours. then your heated suit uses a chunk of that reserve just before you put bike away.... guess what happens next morning?"

"PB/EQ is most lithium battery mfg's attempt to capitalize on Lithium battery's ability to discharge at huge rates. without diving into all the technical reasons why this is so and putting most eyeballs to sleep in the process."

This is a repeat of the "misquote" that was in my original post. Like the first one, it's a 'copy and paste'. job. It's pretty hard to misquote. This is from the Q&A section.

http://www.batterystuff.com/kb/frequent ... n-faq.html

"Be aware, Shorai LiFePO4 batteries are rated with the equivalent capacity of their AGM counterparts. However, their true capacity is going to be roughly 1/3 of that rating. For example, the LFX18L1-BS12 says it‘s a 18AH PbEq. But it will perform like a 6 AH AGM battery if you use it for deep cycle purposes."

Numbers aside, they are kinda gutless. Like a Honda 90 that needs rings.

Glen

worntorn said:

Numbers aside, they are kinda gutless. Like a Honda 90 that needs rings.

Glen

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Great anology... You know it's running because of the putt-putt sound, but not much happens when you squeeze it

Hi, what's the best stator to charge those Shorai batteries , 10 amp single phase or a 16 amp three phase , let say for a common 7ah or 9 ah battery (which should be enough for a non electric start cdo) ?