RGM folding kickstart lever not fitting

Cuppy

Cuppy

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Trying to install the RGM folding kickstart lever on my '72 750 Commando. It will go on nicely until it bottoms out but will not clear the recess in the shaft in order to fit the pinch bolt. Hard to get a good pic but this shows the recess and lever is on with maybe 1/8" clearance to gear box cover.
Has anyone run into this?
pinchbolthole.jpg
 
Have you previously fitted a layshaft inner roller bearing and shimmed the inner cover to reduce layshaft endfloat.
 
kommando said:
Have you previously fitted a layshaft inner roller bearing and shimmed the inner cover to reduce layshaft endfloat.
Click to expand...
I have recently rebuilt the entire gearbox which included a ball bearing type layshaft bearing (the one once recommended by Mick Hemmings). I did not add any shims and had no issue with the standard kicker. Do you think I need to add shims?
 
Cuppy said:
Do you think I need to add shims?
Click to expand...
No, but adding shims in certain places would move the kickstart spindle inwards. By using a ball bearing you have the enfloat limited by the internal clearance in the ball bearing so no need for shims which are needed with a roller bearing as that type of bearing floats.

That brings you issue down to 3 possibilities.

1. The RGM kickstart inner surface is too high.

2. The gearbox outer cover surface is too high.

3. The groove on the kickstart spindle is too far inward.

4. The steel bush in the outer cover is too thick or not fully home.

or any combination of the 4.

When you rebuilt the gearbox did you fit a new kickstart spindle, if so where did it come from, did you fit a new steel bush.
 
Cuppy said:
Trying to install the RGM folding kickstart lever on my '72 750 Commando. It will go on nicely until it bottoms out but will not clear the recess in the shaft in order to fit the pinch bolt. Hard to get a good pic but this shows the recess and lever is on with maybe 1/8" clearance to gear box cover.
Has anyone run into this?View attachment 113903
Click to expand...
Likely it stopped sliding on easily at the edge of the worn/slightly deformed spline, where the old kicker lived.
Drive a screwdriver in the slot to open it up, tap the kicker on with a wooden block & bfh.

We met at the NENO meeting last week.🍻
 
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kommando said:
No, but adding shims in certain places would move the kickstart spindle inwards. By using a ball bearing you have the enfloat limited by the internal clearance in the ball bearing so no need for shims which are needed with a roller bearing as that type of bearing floats.

That brings you issue down to 3 possibilities.

1. The RGM kickstart inner surface is too high.

2. The gearbox outer cover surface is too high.

3. The groove on the kickstart spindle is too far inward.

4. The steel bush in the outer cover is too thick or not fully home.

or any combination of the 4.

When you rebuilt the gearbox did you fit a new kickstart spindle, if so where did it come from, did you fit a new steel bush.
Click to expand...
Could it also be possible that a PO fitted shims and they are still in there?
If it had been previously had a roller bearing at sometime in it's life that is
 
kommando said:
No, but adding shims in certain places would move the kickstart spindle inwards. By using a ball bearing you have the enfloat limited by the internal clearance in the ball bearing so no need for shims which are needed with a roller bearing as that type of bearing floats.

That brings you issue down to 3 possibilities.

1. The RGM kickstart inner surface is too high.

2. The gearbox outer cover surface is too high.

3. The groove on the kickstart spindle is too far inward.

4. The steel bush in the outer cover is too thick or not fully home.

or any combination of the 4.

When you rebuilt the gearbox did you fit a new kickstart spindle, if so where did it come from, did you fit a new steel bush.
Click to expand...
1. The RGM kickstart inner surface is too high.
I'm leaning towards this. Waiting on a response from RGM.

When you rebuilt the gearbox did you fit a new kickstart spindle, if so where did it come from, did you fit a new steel bush.
No but I replaced the inner cover with a good used one purchased from Greg Marsh
 
concours said:
Likely it stopped sliding on easily at the edge of the worn/slightly deformed spline, where the old kicker lived.
Drive a screwdriver in the slot to open it up, tap the kicker on with a wooden block & bfh.

We met at the NENO meeting last week.🍻
Click to expand...
I did all that believe me. It appears that if I were able to drive it on enough to clear the shaft recess, I would be up against GB outer cover.

Also, wasn't me at the NENO meeting. Wish I could have made it.
 
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baz said:
Could it also be possible that a PO fitted shims and they are still in there?
If it had been previously had a roller bearing at sometime in it's life that is
Click to expand...
Definately no shims left in there. The bearing I removed was a ball bearing but can't say if original.

Edited
 
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Cuppy said:
1. The RGM kickstart inner surface is too high.
I'm leaning towards this. Waiting on a response from RGM.

When you rebuilt the gearbox did you fit a new kickstart spindle, if so where did it come from, did you fit a new steel bush.
No but I replaced the inner cover with a good used one purchased from Greg Marsh
Click to expand...
So your new inner cover has never been used with the old kickstart as a check. if the old kickstart fits then that points to the RGM kickstart, if not then the inner cover is the issue. All parts are made to tolerances, you can get situations when all the parts on hand are to the top end of the tolerance band and then get a fit issue.
 
I had this issue, and as already hypothesised (wow - and it's still only Monday morning!) it was due to shimming the kickstart shaft for roller bearing end-float control.
Once I ditched the roller bearing & shims in favour of the TB ballrace it all fitted fine, I would have said that there's still a shim lurking around in there, but you've already confirmed there isn't.
Is the kickstart hard up against the outer cover?

I haven't heard of any complaints with the RGM kickstarter before, but there's always a first time.
 
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B+Bogus said:
I had this issue, and as already hypothesised (wow - and it's still only Monday morning!) it was due to shimming the kickstart shaft for roller bearing end-float control.
Once I ditched the roller bearing & shims in favour of the TB ballrace it all fitted fine, I would have said that there's still a shim lurking around in there, but you've already confirmed there isn't.
Is the kickstart hard up against the outer cover?

I haven't heard of any complaints with the RGM kickstarter before, but there's always a first time.
Click to expand...
Is the kickstart hard up against the outer cover?

No, maybe an 1/8" shy but I would need all that to clear the recess if I were to drive it on further.
 
Cuppy said:
Is the kickstart hard up against the outer cover?

No, maybe an 1/8" shy but I would need all that to clear the recess if I were to drive it on further.
Click to expand...
1) Be sure that the bolt and lever go together properly in with the lever off the bike.
2) Be sure the lever will go on the shaft all the way to touching the case.
3) Quit looking at the gap and see if the bolt will go in with the lever on the shaft.
a. If so, don't worry about the gap if there is a tiny one after kicking a few times.
b. If not, check the lever hole and bolt diameter. I've had to SLIGHTY radius the edge of the slot in the kickstart pinion for those levers because they can catch on the slot in the shaft - it's only been the top outer edge that would interfere.

Keep in mind that with no shims, the shaft can move in and out quite a bit. Since you have it all together, it doesn't seem so because the spring makes it difficult to move in an out. There is nothing to firmly locate either the kickstart shaft or the layshaft. It is possible that your kickstart shaft is simply in too far and that once the lever is on and in use, that everything will align itself. I like and use those levers, but the hold placement is NOT accurately done!

And, you said: "maybe an 1/8" shy but I would need all that to clear the recess if I were to drive it on further." Driving it on obviously moves the kickstart shaft towards the gearbox as much as the internal slop will allow.

If you have a stock lever, try it and compare the two.

Of course, if you determine that the kickstart shaft is bad, send it back - as I remember it, it was like new, but I did not remove it from a gearbox so I cannot swear that it has no problem. Even new parts can be made wrong.
 
Cuppy said:
Is the kickstart hard up against the outer cover?

No, maybe an 1/8" shy but I would need all that to clear the recess if I were to drive it on further.
Click to expand...
You don't know until you try, when you push it in you are also pushing the kickstart shaft inwards, once on and just barely touching the shaft will be free to move out by the endfloat.
 
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Stephen Hill said:
How does the stock kickstart lever fit? Any different?
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Yes. That's a good idea which should show where the problem lies. If the stock one fits then you will probably not find the solution inside the gearbox.

I have an RGM one on my bike and it fits just fine. I'll measure the clearance this afternoon.
 
johnm said:
Yes. That's a good idea which should show where the problem lies. If the stock one fits then you will probably not find the solution inside the gearbox.

I have an RGM one on my bike and it fits just fine. I'll measure the clearance this afternoon.
Click to expand...
I'm trying to help him outside the forum.

His stock one fits fine. The RGM won't go on far enough. The RGM does not have the relief behind the splines and the splines wrap around farther than stock. I've installed 5 or 6 of them and most required fiddling and often cleaning up the splines.

Also, he's able to do something I've never been able to do - pull the shaft out and push it in with the gearbox assembled using only fingers - the return spring makes that very hard to do. So, it's clear to me that the shaft is not staying out when he tries to push the starter on.

He has about 1/8" of clearance with the shaft pushed in.
 
marshg246 said:
I'm trying to help him outside the forum.

His stock one fits fine. The RGM won't go on far enough. The RGM does not have the relief behind the splines and the splines wrap around farther than stock. I've installed 5 or 6 of them and most required fiddling and often cleaning up the splines.

Also, he's able to do something I've never been able to do - pull the shaft out and push it in with the gearbox assembled using only fingers - the return spring makes that very hard to do. So, it's clear to me that the shaft is not staying out when he tries to push the starter on.

He has about 1/8" of clearance with the shaft pushed in.
Click to expand...
OK. I get it. Mine has about 2 mm or 80 thou clearance to the gearbox when fitted. Mine went straight on but I'm trying to remember. Maybe I got mine from NY Norton. Possibly not RGM?

The shaft has been shimmed on my gearbox. It was jumping out of first a few years back and I shimmed it. Works fine now.
 
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