Quick question: crankcase full of oil

So as I'm trying to bring my Dad's bike back to life, I just happened to read old posts that the oil (drained into crank) is NOT an issue. I've lubbed the cylinders (combustion chambers), kicked her a dozen times or so for some oil there, as she's not been started in years. Plan on draining the oil, replacing it back in the oil pan. My question is should I be concerned about priming the oil pump after years of sitting, or just kick her several times before trying to start? Or, is it even simpler, in that with all the oil in the crank, she won't need to be primed? (just making sure...)

Something to be thinking about: the Valve guides. They get very dry over ten years and they can grab on you the first good rev out. The right way would be to pull the head and the valves clean and pre-lube with assembly grease. But forcing some oil into the guides is minimal preparation. Some sort of compressed air and oil would do the job. Yes about 200cc's of oil in the bottom of the engine case as primer should help things get pumping right away.

I had good luck when I rebuilt my engine taking a heavy duty drill, get a 15/16" six point socket in 3/4" drive. A 1" spade bit will fit right into the 3/4 drive across the angles, and you can take off the primary cover, make sure the nut on the rotor is tight, take the spark plugs out, and the drill will turn over the engine at about 6-700 rpm. I did it on my 750 'S' until I saw oil in the rocker shafts, put on the rocker covers and gaskets, and continued cranking until I saw oil dripping out of the return in the tank. You'll have to run the drill in reverse. It certainly gave me some piece of mind, and when it started, oil was returning into the tank just fine. Use straight 50W.

Dave
69S

DogT said:

I had good luck when I rebuilt my engine taking a heavy duty drill, get a 15/16" six point socket in 3/4" drive. A 1" spade bit will fit right into the 3/4 drive across the angles, and you can take off the primary cover, make sure the nut on the rotor is tight, take the spark plugs out, and the drill will turn over the engine at about 6-700 rpm. I did it on my 750 'S' until I saw oil in the rocker shafts, put on the rocker covers and gaskets, and continued cranking until I saw oil dripping out of the return in the tank. You'll have to run the drill in reverse. It certainly gave me some piece of mind, and when it started, oil was returning into the tank just fine. Use straight 50W.

Dave
69S

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How long has your bike been sitting? When I started my bike for the first time, it had been sitting for 12 years or so in the shed of the previous owner (who I knew). I poured maybe a teaspoon of Marvel Mystery Oil into each sparkplug hole and kicked over the bike 100 times with the plugs removed, to help lubricate the bores and unstick the rings. I'd recommend pouring motor oil into the inlet and exhaust rocker boxes, about as much as will go into each area at one time and letting it drain into the crankcase. If you've drained the crankcases prior to that, it will probably amount to less than a pint in the crankcases. That will lube the cam and tappets and the timing chest as it drains down, although the timing chest will probably be full of oil due to wet sumping. As Dave says, when the bike starts make sure that oil is returning to the tank.

Generally the cam isn't lubricated very well at idle, it's lubricated by splash from the crank and there's not enough splash at low rpm. Recommendations for breaking in a new cam are to keep the engine rpm up a bit after it starts (you can review Norvil's website for instructions), you don't want to rev the engine too much, just keep it over 2000 rpm or so. I know you're not breaking in a new cam, but you might want to keep the rpm up a a little after it starts, similar to when breaking in a new cam, since the cam hasn't been oiled in however long. I'd probably change the oil after the engine comes up to temperature, and then at 50, and 500 miles.

-Eric

Instead of a drill, I did it like so oiler-for-engine-rebuild-another-crazy-idea-t4274.html?hilit= crazy

Jean

I think it would be a good idea to drain the oil out of the crankcase and the oil tank and DUMP IT. Don't replace it back into the oil pan, whatever that is. If you pour about a cup of oil over the intake and exhaust valves it will help lube the top of the valves and seals. In the end what goes on the intakes winds up in the timing case and from the exhaust valves on to the cam lobes. While you're at it replace the oil filter if there is one.

Gary said:

I just happened to read old posts that the oil (drained into crank) is NOT an issue.

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It isn't as if the crank is normally empty.

Gary said:

My question is should I be concerned about priming the oil pump after years of sitting, or just kick her several times before trying to start? Or, is it even simpler, in that with all the oil in the crank, she won't need to be primed?

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You can take out the plugs, put it in 4th gear, and just push it about a block if you want to be sure everything is ok, but the pump is self priming. :roll: How come it hasn't been started in years? How many years?

Wow, guys, thanks a lot for the replies. I actually hadn't considered (i.e. 'spaced out') lubricating the top end. I have an aerosol can, compressed upper end lube I'll use. Have also thought of pulling the plugs and simply pushing the bike around the block. Also, while I've never wrenched the top end, seems like I recall I might be able to remove some plates and get some lubricant in there, much as some of you have stated. I'd prefer the drill consept, except of course I don't have a large drill like that. The bike hasn't been started in years because my Dad died two years ago. I did manage to get her running about 6 or 7 years ago but, unfortunately, I did not know then that the interstate fiberglass tank would dissolve with the ethynol and 'reformulated' gas used around here, so the plugs would simply foul within a couple of miles! As is, now having torn the carbs apart, I hope to simply fill the float chambers via fuel line (no tank) and fire her over. And, yes, my intention is to use fresh oil! Guess I'm guilty of 'assuming' everyone would grasp that. What I'd like to do is get this '72 750 Interstate running, then address a permanent fix to the tank, and run her around for a bit. When I had her running 6-7 years ago, I mostly remember that after a 20 mile run (with plug change halfway through), the vibration was so bad my wrist bones hurt. That being said, if she'll run even modestly well... well, it was my Dad's love and joy for decades, so I wouldn't mind then slowly restoring her from the frame up. Slowly, because I've no vast experience, but am not afraid of wrenching and learning as I go.

An odd thing: kicked her yesterday before posting here, and couldn't seem to get her to fire over (likely a good thing until I get some lubricant up there). However, I then pulled the plugs, poured a dollop of fuel into each chamber, repplaced plugs and kicked. She fired instantly, but of course then would not run because of no fuel. So, I am wondering if the gravity weight of the fuel in a tank would be needed, rather than just filling the bowls? That doesn't make sense to me, but perhaps? I also do not understand why I can not get the 'ticklers' to prime. Course, perhaps I did something wrong on the carb re-assembly, but for the life of me I cannot understand or figure out what that might have been. Anyone ever have no fuel through the carbs? Any guesses?

In any

Just off the top of my head, I would say the your floats are adjusted slightly too low. The ticklers cannot effectively push down on the floats to disengage the needle from the seat.

You may have set the float as instructed but their are variables to these simple units as a little pressure off center will give a false reading. Validate flow by unscrewing the banjo, then raise the float to the point where the ticklers function.

I have also taken the ticklers apart and made longer pins. I think it was a 1/8 roll pin at the hardware store. The tricky part was fanning over the end to keep.

I think that is is more important that the floats are equal to each other in height. While you're at it, make sure all surfaces are flat before you put it back together. Light filing at the ears for the screws is a common practice. They are so soft and easily overtightened. This will also bring the float and bowl up to the tickler stubs.

It doesn't take a huge drill to turn it over with the plugs out. But my Milwaukee is no slouch, a 1/2" 4.5A, and it still heated up after a few minutes. I did it in stages and let it cool off. I wasn't in any rush before I could see oil returning. I could tell when the oil started pumping because the RPM's really dropped. I too had trouble with the tickling when I rebuilt the carbs with the new stay up floats, when I set the floats at 0.08" below the top of the bowl, I could not get tickling, so I set them up just below the top of the bowls and it seems to be running good so far. If you're near an airport, get yourself a gas can and get some avgas until you get the tank sorted or coated. That's what I'm doing. 100LL has no ethanol in it, it is about $4.50/G. There may be stations that sell real gas in your area too, check puregas.com.

Dave
69S

Concerning cranking the motor before starting it I will tell you of an experience I had twenty + years ago. I built a fresh motor for my racebike and finished just in time to race the coming weekend. I thought I would get things broken in a bit before I got to the track where I wouldn't have time to do it porperly . So after I pre-lubed everything really good I put a belt from my variable speed 14 inch grinder with a 5 horse motor to the engine pully. It had enough power to turn the motor at around 500 rpm so I let it spin for about an hour and kept an eye on the oil pressure . There were no plugs in the motor.
In that hour of running at low speed the megacycle cam that was in the engine was wiped out. All 4 lobes were gone. It was not a new cam or lifters.
The people at the megacycle said it happened because the engine was not turning fast enough to create a hydroscopic wedge of oil between the cam and lifters so metal to metal contact wiped it out. They said you were much better of to start a flat tappet engine and bring it up to speed immediately to avoid damage from turning too slow. New or old. I have always done that since after making sure the oil pump and crankshaft was full of oil. Jim

Hmm. Damn, for the life of me I cannot recall doing ANY 'adjustment' to the floats of these 932 Amals. Will have to review the manual, I guess. Truth is, I've never had luck with (any) carb's, they've always seemed like 'black magic boxes' to me. That being said, I do believe I recall reading the ticklers push down on the float as you've suggested. So... I guess I shall re-re-re-re-re-read that part of Clymer's again, and also try to UNDERSTAND how the carb actually operates, passes the fuel, etc. I'd thought that it was the (handle) throttle that opened the needle... but now guessing my thought was wrong?

As is, I believe that I simply dropped the floats (pin, et al) in where they were supposed to be. So, off to try to learn more, and also figure out what/where/how I can adjust the float level. Sounds like a GOOD PLACE TO START, eh? Like stated, no real experience , just a desire to get my father's bike running.

Added after above post: I just read my Haynes manual which I have at work. Doesn't say 'jack' about float adjustment, nor can I even imagine how you'd go about it??
Secondly, how DOES the fuel get past the needle when the bike is operating? Vacuum? Geez, am I green, or what?!

comnoz, I only ran the drill long enough to get the oil dribbling out of the return in the tank, after that it started right up after installing a battery, but I have not run it since. I'm waiting on a battery that will fit in the bike, not a car battery so I can get a proper load on running and breaking in the engine.

Gary, if you have the old plastic floats and the plastic needle, the adjustment is hardly worth it, you have to drift the seat, which is probably not a good idea. The new stay up floats and Viton tipped needle from Amal has metal tangs on the float, so it is real easy to adjust with just a pair of pliers. http://www.amalcarb.co.uk/ProductDetail.aspx?Id=37372. One of the best sites I have seen about adjusting the carbs is JBA http://www.jba.bc.ca/Bushmans%20Carb%20Tuning.html

Mine started up 2nd kick after a total rebuild (after I hooked up a battery) and the carbs needed little adjusting although I did change the floats from the Amal instructions to my old settings.

Good luck
Dave
69S

Dave, I wouldn't even suggest that what you did caused any damage, However I read a while back on another forum where someone actually towed his freshly rebuilt motor around the block with his car a couple times to make sure oil was flowing. I had to cringe. Jim

It sounds like you haven't put gas in the tank and that you're checking to see if you can get the floatbowls to flood by filling the lines with gas. Why not take the tank off the bike you've mentioned in other posts and put it on you dad's bike to see before you tear into the carbs again? Maybe it'll fire right up.

If the crank case if full of oil does that suggest the little rubber grommet on the oil pump may have perished ?.

Bob, that's the eventual plan if I get her running. That is, simply swap over the other tank (metal) and run her up to operating temperature. I just tried filling the float bowls via the new fuel lines simply to see if she'd fire over... thinking that just a few seconds or so the first time as a way to just 'check out' if she'd run. Now, you guys have got me pondering the carbs. I know they mix fuel/air... but SOB, I guess I never pondered HOW. Oh, well. Will sort that out.

I pulled the carbs and cleaned/replaced everything but the floats as they were good. Carb's were thick with plasticized-like resin from the breakdown of the Interstate tank (fiberglass). The new fuel needles, have that rubber tip, etc. Could see the marks on the floats from the ticklers, so learned that. Everything is new and either learned, or to BE learned, and I like it that way, though often times frustrating, lol's.

The really nice ray of sunshine here, is that when I poured a couple drops in each chamber, she did fire... so that can't be anything but good. But, yes, if I had her to the point where I was going to take her out for a short juant, I'd simply use the other Norton tank, then get cracking on the interstate tank.

Josh Cox said:

If the crank case if full of oil does that suggest the little rubber grommet on the oil pump may have perished ?.

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Not so much, once the oil is past the pump there's not much to stop it from going into the crankcases. Wet sumping typically indicates the fit of the gears in the oil pump body is loose. In addition, a lot of time the studs that hold the pump to the crankcases will be loose in their threaded holes (I use blue locktite to try to prevent it). I think that can contribute a little to the wet sumping although you do have the timing cover pushing on the conical seal pushing the oil pump body against the crankcases.

-Eric

On any Norton the oil will eventually end up in the crankcase after setting. On a pre-MK3 850 it may take 2 weeks and on a Mk3 850 it may take a bit longer, but unless there is some kind of valve to prevent wet sumpng the oil will end up in the crankcase sooner or later.
Many people drain the crankcase into a pan and pour it back into the tank before they start it. I do that if the engine has set more than 6 weeks or so but otherwise I will just start the motor and let it run at idle and let the scavenge pump move the oil back to the tank. Jim

I'm getting close to trying to bring her to life. I used some Marvel Mystery oil under the rocker covers, used a large (for thick fiberglass resin) hypodermic to squirt the light oil onto everything under the rocker cover. Then I dead-kicked her maybe 50 times, plugs removed. Do you think I should chase the mystery oil in the upper end with MOTOR oil??? And speaking of motor oil: the manual states 20w50, but some have said use a straight 50 instead. Brain trust on this??

The oil I drained out looked good. No grit, no particles. Only got about a 1/2 quart out, though. The bike has an oil cooler on it (but no spin on oil filter).

I would use 20-50. Use heavy duty oil for diesel truck service for the right additives. Next thing I would do is install an oil filter. jim