Quick change cam kits

bwolfie said:

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Did somebody tried those for a while and have something to say about it? Wondering about how the oil could get in there once installed...

I think this is a brilliant idea!

Nick Deligiannis was using that same idea almost 50 years ago on the #13 Norton.

I want one!

Too bad you have to take the bottom end apart the first time...

What is the benifit?? You can hardly take the bike down to the pub Sunday lunch time or club night and show all your mates your latest tuning mod can you!! Remind me how many thousands of miles old Dominators covered employing plain cam bearings...... till owners started playing with their motors trying to make them go faster........People have been making livings for decades flogging such things. Why not fit cooling rings to Dommy and Commando front drum brakes...they were all the rage at one time in my young days. Some idiots even bought bolt on cooling 'muffs' which did bugger all to transfer heat away from the drum....but they gave the racer look!! Tommy Mortimer (MEL Engineering)shrunk cooling fins on to peoples road going hubs on a regular basis...along with the 7R/ G50 and Manx hubs for Francis Beart and a few other tuners and owners of the time. Then he would use the remaining big centre lumps of alloy plate, machine them and fit a timing disc into them selling them to owners so they could be hung on workshop walls looking pretty and would last 500 years of regular use !!! No point in throwing the centre lumps away was there!!
Fads... they come and go. Paul Dunstall in his book Norton Tuning shows a cam with needle roller bearings fitted both ends and that book has to be 50 odd years old. Note the cam also has holes drilled in each lobe for a positive oil supply.... which was clearly needed as elsewhere there is a picture of some brain dead grinding away the remains of the camshaft oil bath Mr Hopwood so carefully designed into his Dominator engine to ensure the cam and followers were CORRECTLY lubricated...........Not that many Norton owners are aware of such facts.......Triumph 650 motors at one time knackered their exhaust cams and something like 50% were replaced during the warrenty period ..till mismanagement allowd the remaining Engineer to have them nitrided( It was cheaper to nitride the cams than sorting out a correctly working oil supply system for them!!). Tommy Mortimer drilled thhe cams going into Jeff Montys Monard race bikes allowing a positive oil supply but it needed a new gear pump to supply the extra oil required..... Guess why BSA twins had the can in the rear of the crank cases where oil being thrown off the crank ended up.....there and on the bores leaving sweet nothing for the exhaust cam.......and did not A65s retain a timing side plain bearing although I have memories of needle rollers replacing them, flogged by some dealers.....

J. M. Leadbeater said:

the camshaft oil bath Mr Hopwood so carefully designed into his Dominator engine to ensure the cam and followers were CORRECTLY lubricated...........Not that many Norton owners are aware of such facts.......

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I think the forum members are sufficiently aware as you mention it almost every week, so this has to be the very last time.

J. M. Leadbeater said:

What is the benifit??

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To be able to change camshafts without splitting the cases.

NKN said:

bwolfie said:

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Did somebody tried those for a while and have something to say about it? Wondering about how the oil could get in there once installed...

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I have used several. The Norton camshaft is not hard enough to run very long directly on a needle bearing.
There were a few aftermarket cams made with special hardened journals [Dunstall] that would last.
For racing you can get a season out of a non-scrolled Norton cam ok.
I run needles in my streetbike but I ground the journal down first and installed a hardened race. Jim

Of course there is nothing that says the quick change kit has to be made with a needle bearing. It would work with a bushing in it.

motorson said:

Of course there is nothing that says the quick change kit has to be made with a needle bearing. It would work with a bushing in it.

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That works. Jim

comnoz said:

motorson said:

Of course there is nothing that says the quick change kit has to be made with a needle bearing. It would work with a bushing in it.

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That works. Jim

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Excellent. I had thought of it because my Dreer VR880 engine has the needle kit in it and I have yet to assemble it. I think I'll do the bushing instead.

Thanx.

Just curious.......
Does Steve Maney offer the quick change option on his cases? if not, why not?

It seems like it could be a pretty useful upgrade over stock on a race bike.

Mark said:

Just curious.......
Does Steve Maney offer the quick change option on his cases? if not, why not?

It seems like it could be a pretty useful upgrade over stock on a race bike.

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No he doesn't.

Two reasons I can think of:

1. He only sells one cam... So in his book there's no need for experimentation so no need for quick changes.

2. I suggest it weakens the cases. It puts a bigger hole in the timing side case. Triumph cases can crack through the centre line of the cam holes. Maybe such a big hole would weaken a norton cases similarly.

comnoz said:

I run needles in my streetbike but I ground the journal down first and installed a hardened race. Jim

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Why not just hardened the cam's journal?

comnoz said:

motorson said:

Of course there is nothing that says the quick change kit has to be made with a needle bearing. It would work with a bushing in it.

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That works. Jim

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Before bearings where bushings, and, correct me if I'm wrong, we went from bushings to bearings to avoid losing, here and there, little energy on each one. Of course, that lost energy came heat increase. And we all know that converting energy in heat here and there means less energy on the rear wheel.

Wondering if a double row ball bearing will do the job, and, here is the tricky part, how to fix it? If there is enough room for it... :roll:

Fast Eddie said:

Triumph cases can crack through the centre line of the cam holes. Maybe such a big hole would weaken a norton cases similarly.

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And Maney cases?

One thing that puzzles me here - if you change the cam, the cam suppliers always say that new or reground cam followers must be used.
I can understand a racer or a development shop using this but for normal people...

Hang on, who says Norton owners are normal anyway

SteveBorland said:

One thing that puzzles me here - if you change the cam, the cam suppliers always say that new or reground cam followers must be used.
I can understand a racer or a development shop using this but for normal people...

Hang on, who says Norton owners are normal anyway

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True Steve, but even then its 'only' a top end strip, not an engine out case split job...

The oil scroll in the camshaft will not cope very well with the needle bearing. The RRT gearboxes in the BSA Goldstar for example, uses non scrolled shafts in the needle bearings, while the std boxes have oil scrolls in combination with bronze bushings.
Apart from that, the camshaft of the Norton will probably not be hard enough to run with a needle roller bearing.

Peter R said:

The oil scroll in the camshaft will not cope very well with the needle bearing.

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I would be more inclined to think that too.

NKN said:

Why not just hardened the cam's journal?

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The Norton cam can not be hardened enough to run on a needle for very long. It requires a different grade of steel. Jim

Fast Eddie said:

Mark said:

Just curious.......
Does Steve Maney offer the quick change option on his cases? if not, why not?

It seems like it could be a pretty useful upgrade over stock on a race bike.

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No he doesn't.

Two reasons I can think of:

1. He only sells one cam... So in his book there's no need for experimentation so no need for quick changes.

2. I suggest it weakens the cases. It puts a bigger hole in the timing side case. Triumph cases can crack through the centre line of the cam holes. Maybe such a big hole would weaken a norton cases similarly.

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I asked Steve about that several years ago. His answer was that the case is pretty thin there, and he didn't think it was a good idea to make it any weaker.

Years ago I saw one of these done with a stock bronze bushing instead of needles, but I can't recall where.

Ken